Few thoughts on music and live performance.

[Hiten]

Dear friends, first a ..
Brief introduction :
the small town where I live have few clubs (sansthas) who are dedicated to music. We have good population of people who are knowledgeable in classical music, and most of the acclaimed musicians have performed here. Last two weeks were busy as I was designing a booklet for such a live performance for a friend. So sharing few thoughts.
Events that happened :
Got a chance to not only design booklet but hear live performances by Pt. Shivkumar Sharma and Pt. Hariprasad Chaurasia. The event was arranged today and got two passes, but due to work pressure gave it away to two music students. Completed my work had lunch grabbed few things and made a dash to the auditorium and made my way to backstage. Was lucky to hear last half hour of Pt. Hariprasad Chaurasia. Day and night difference between live performance (though amplified and I was on backstage) and 'home stereos'. But when listening to such legends who have dedicated most of their life to music one doesn't compare sound quality between solid state devices and live performance. Though my classical music knowledge is zero I enjoyed it thoroughly as I listen to everything that sounds good to my ears. Event was soon over and Pt. Shivkumarji came out first. Amazing personality ! My friend introduced me to him. I took out the stuff I bought along. Obviously it was vinyl . I requested him to sign with my name. He asked me do you have a player to listen to this ? Yes I said. Then went to Pt. Hariprasadji, who was pleasantly surprised to see picture of his youth. He gave his trademark autograph, which is his name with Bansuri.
Things I learned :
~ Tremendous appreciation to the humbleness and elegance these famous musicians have. Though Pt. Hariprasadji seemed tired, he not only performed for more than one hour he said to the audience he will come again to give even more refined performance. Than he obliged everyone who wanted autographs and pictures taken,(mad rush it was). Cracked jokes with very very young aspiring musicians and children. All these without showing any attitude or irritation.
~ I am confused about future of classical music. On one hand I see very talented young people learning classical music on another astounding popularity of typical modern commercial garbage.
~ Have heard few high end systems. Though music was amplified and I was in backstage, I wonder if one can ever build a hifi systems which mimics the live stage performance sound.
~ It would be interesting and a great privilege to listen to such greats in small room/amphitheatre without any amplification.
~ If any one has a chance to listen to great musicians like these, do not miss it. Because in future you will not find artists who have dedicated 40/50 years to the music.
~ Just enjoy the process of hifi audio setup, don't crave for the perfect 100% sound from hifi. Chances are one may never achieve it.

More as I think...

Bragging rights

Regards

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hiten, live performaces (even amplified one, are very different). In normal household systems we don't even approach that level of energy. I will take a very very simple example.

Take a dhol (Indian drum, large one) and beat it vigorously. Record it with as sophisticated equipments you can and put as much money into reproducing it as you can. I can bet my life, 50 lacs worth of equipments won't be able to reproduce the original dhol sound the same way it sounds in real.

 

[svaze]

Hiten, had the good fortune of listening to these two greats in Pune two weeks back. I agree with you, attending a live performance is much more involving than listening to recorded music on a system.

 

[iaudio]

Hiten, That must have been a really special event, two extraordinary performers together! It is quite heartening to see that you got the chance to meet them. Those LPs must be on your centerpiece now.
Like you related, I too am quite ignorant about Hindustani/Carnatic classical music, but I have enjoyed every opportunity I got to listen to live classical performances. For me, a high point was when I got the opportunity to sit with Yesudas for a Carnatic classical katcheri/concert.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Hiten, please look for Hariprasad Chaurasia's life story. It will amaze you. It is about as far from the "traditional" music-family background/tradition as it could possibly get. His father was a wrestler, who wanted him to follow the family business, and certainly not play music!

Chennai is possibly the most music-rich city in India in terms of classical performances per day, perhaps in the whole world. I won't say I'm lucky to be here, because it was the music that brought here in the first place, but all Chennai-ites are lucky to have what we have.

It's been a busy week, and I've lost count of the concerts I've attended! There were two yesterday.

For the most part, it is the vitamin-x factor of live music that makes it all worth while. Sadly, it is seldom the quality of the PA amplification. Very, very few halls are able to come near the quality of a decent home hifi. The concert that I have come from this evening was an exception --- because there was no amplification. Few vocalists are really able to project their voices without the mic in front of them, but, despite her age, Suguna Purushothaman's voice was clear, strong and beautiful. Also, mridangam and violin accompanists are unused to regulating their own volume, but, tonight, both did so perfectly. Sadly, the audience only just outnumbered the artists on the stage, although, as it was a small venue, in a way, this added to the intimacy of the occasion.

What can beat 50 Lakh worth of electronics? I have no hesitation in saying: no electronics at all

Such concerts, though, are about as common as hen's teeth.

 

[gobble]

Great post Hiten and Thad
I had the opportunity to do an A/B comparison of live amplified versus unamplified music (this one http://nadasurabhi.org/concert-schedules/details/79-gravikiran-vocal-on-21st-october-2012) courtesy the erratic power supply that went off maybe 4 to 5 times during the performance. Although the hall was too large for unamplified music, I was convinced that my home audio system would deliver a better listening experience than the one at the venue.

--Gobble

Sent from mobile on a crappy keyboard. Pls excuse typos.

 

[iaudio]

Back home, in Tripunitura( Cochin) there are many prominent temples. During the festival time at Poornathrayeesya Temple, there are regular unamplified live performances, with a small gathering of 20-30 people as audience.

 

[pdhanwada]

Great post Hiten and Thad
I had the opportunity to do an A/B comparison of live amplified versus unamplified music (this one Concert Schedules - G.Ravikiran-Vocal on 21st October 2012) courtesy the erratic power supply that went off maybe 4 to 5 times during the performance. Although the hall was too large for unamplified music, I was convinced that my home audio system would deliver a better listening experience than the one at the venue.

--Gobble

Sent from mobile on a crappy keyboard. Pls excuse typos.

I too have attended lots of live performances in india. Sound quality wise most of them fall short. Poor PA systems contributing to the factor.

Mixing part mic level adjustments are done so much instantenously, it corrupts the originality. If PA speakers not good high and low frequencies are teh problem to listen to.Earlier I used to get excited to go to a live performance, Not anymore.

I agree may be overseas, these problems are well taken care off.

Thanks
Pandu

 

[Hiten]

Like you related, I too am quite ignorant about Hindustani/Carnatic classical music,

Though I dont understand, I too sometimes listen to carnatic music. Mostly on TV.

Hiten, please look for Hariprasad Chaurasia's life story. It will amaze you. .

Will do so. He is more than 70 years of age, and started learning flute at 17. More than 50 years dedicated to classical form of music !!!!!

Sadly, it is seldom the quality of the PA amplification. Very, very few halls are able to come near the quality of a decent home hifi.

I was convinced that my home audio system would deliver a better listening experience than the one at the venue.

Very true Bros. But sorry for confusion. As I said It would be interesting to listen to them in small room or amphitheatre. And I doubt it can match the electronics. I think NCPA Mumbai has amphitheatre. Designed by an american and needs no electronic amplification. May be someone who has experienced it can share views.
Regards

 

[Hari Iyer]

For building good speakers, its required to attend live performance every now and then without amplification. It will help you understand how close you should tune your systems to achieve live performance from your hardware. Recordings usually have time delay (some in microseconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years) before you can hear them and this delay also causes deterioration in the SQ. The speaker itself will have over 1% of distortion and less to say about the electronics gear connected to it. Even a live performance depends upon the kind of room its being performed and if there were enough absorption, diffusion and reflections in the room. You have less control of the venue in a live performance but in your home you have total control of all the parameters even the artist whom you desire to hear.

 

[sivasarjun]

Interesting thread.
There are two distinct problems the emergence of the Mic poses or has posed.One is of course whether the Mic,speaker and the hall can correctly reproduce .There is another aspect as well.
The change in singing, practicing techniques since the mic was introduced last century.There certainly was no crooning into the mic for the old masters.Full throated and high pitched voice only was the valid currency.Chembais voice could easily fill a hall containing more than five hundred people and everyone could hear perfectly.There is also the famous story of Bade ghulam sahib practicing his tans on the
beach by trying to match or emulate the crashing waves on a monsoon day.
The gradual lowering of the pitch as the mic gradually gained popularity is also well documented.
Perhaps this is the reason why almost all my favorite singers are old masters.

 

[canchi]

Obviously, the point is comparing the audio alone and nothing else from the speakers at the live performance vs audiophile grade gear that you have at home. And you don't have to be a rocket scientist to say that the latter"sounds" better.
But then a live performance is a live performance, period! It doesn't get better than that. Look at it this way, the artist, invariably perhaps, sings better, the feedback from the audience , the excitement of a live performance, may bring further intricacies to the alapane and the swara rendering capability of the artist may be elevated.
There is a lot of talk on this forum about the source of the music being very important. Now here the source is the artist's vocal chords. Perhaps the excitement of a live performance may help release various chemicals/hormones in the body that would enhance the source, and the music "sounds" even better?!
Cheers

 

[Hiten]

Sorry for misunderstanding and not to be clear. Anyway let me rephrase my thought. Suppose there is a live (no electronic amplification) music. Can it be reproduced by high end system accurately? Do we get the same feelings ? May be people who have experienced both comprehensively can explain.
Regards

 

[ranjeetrain]

What can beat 50 Lakh worth of electronics? I have no hesitation in saying: no electronics at all

Good one hyeah:

 

[gobble]

If PA speakers not good ...

Pandu

Yeah, During another cultural event, a light carnatic track was played that I listen regularly to on my system. It sounded sluggish and dull on the PA just like when I used a el-cheapo profigold IC on my 1st setup for a few weeks.

--G0bble

 

[ranjeetrain]

Sorry for misunderstanding and not to be clear. Anyway let me rephrase my thought. Suppose there is a live (no electronic amplification) music. Can it be reproduced by high end system accurately? Do we get the same feelings ? May be people who have experienced both comprehensively can explain.
Regards

This is a complex subject. Here is my view.

No system, regardless of its cost, can reproduce the exact sound of a live performance (and by live performance I usually mean un-amplified).

Why? Two reasons. First reason is, because a live performance has a number of variables that can't be recorded. The distance of listener from the performer, the distance of listener from the surrounding walls, direct sounds, scattered sounds, directly reflected sounds, reverberations everything constitutes a live performance experience. HOWEVER, a commercially recorded music has microphones placed strategically. It is placed to pick only the main sounds (best part of the music/primary components). Only highly directional microphones are chosen purposefully. Whereas to pick up everything, they should be omnidirectional. But with omnidirectional phones they will also be picking up a lot of noise and mixing/producing the end product would become excessively complex. So, recording engineers have no option but to deliberately ignore the ambient sounds. And this ambient sound is the difference, between live performance and recorded playback.

If you want know what is miss from most recorded albums, try to grab a copy of track 10 from FIM audiophile disk. You will instantly hear what is missing from most recordings.

Second reason is - regardless of its price, a system can only approach the reproduction of the actual recording. It can never be 100%.

 

[ranjeetrain]

I am tempted to say - Even if you use a INR 50 lac Hassleblad camera to take a picture of a green valley from a hill top, looking at that picture will never be equal to standing there at the hill top and looking down the valley. A photograph only records one angle, one focal point, one depth of field, but human senses give you a lot more.

Recorded music is your musical photograph of the event it is playing back. It only presents the best (most presentable) sounds from an event. Being in a live concert you hear a lot more.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

There is a point of view that close-miking during recording gives us music as it was not meant to be heard! There are also things that it is barely possible to do in certain auditoria, let alone with 2-chanel stereo. It is pretty impossible to depict Mahler's band playing off stage and no system, however perfect, could possibly reproduce the effect of his trumpeter playing somewhere in that array of Albert Hall Balconies and boxes.

I suspect that the skill of the recording engineers is more important than the playback equipment (am I allowed to say that here? ) although I cannot deny that better equipment is going to give that extra nuance or detail here and there, like the audience cough that I heard on Dr.Bass's system.

However, at home... We can't see their eyes; we can't see their smiles; we can't get annoyed at the behaviour of our fellow audience members. We can't meet the artists afterwards, nor can we meet old and make new friends in the audience. All of this is why, living in Chennai, I hardly ever bother to play any of my carnatic CDs (and I think I have one or two hundred), because I would so much rather have the real-life experience of those people, even over an inferior sound system in an inferior hall*.

Home music is wonderful; stereo is a miracle --- but real living music is unbeatable, and, in the entirety of its experience (hassles and all: I had a horrible Chennai-rain drive home on Saturday night) un-reproducable. I just love it



*There are limits!

 

[gobble]

All of this is why, living in Chennai, I hardly ever bother to play any of my carnatic CDs (and I think I have one or two hundred), because I would so much rather have the real-life experience of those people, even over an inferior sound system in an inferior hall*.

Home music is wonderful; stereo is a miracle --- but real living music is unbeatable, and, in the entirety of its experience (hassles and all: I had a horrible Chennai-rain drive home on Saturday night) un-reproducable. I just love it


*There are limits!

Yeah I have heard some great performances in the Chennai auditoriums that I somehow never get to experience in Bengaluru.

Lucky you!

--G0bble

 

[canchi]

Having been to concerts at the Music Academy and elsewhere in Chennai, I must agree with you in part.But here in Bangalore, Chowdaiah Memorial Hall isn't half as bad and there have been some good concerts there.Over and above that, I just love the open air concerts held at the Fort High School grounds during Ramanavami.