Full range speaker thread.. dedicated post on frequency response and imaging of full range speakers

Good to see that you liked the Sound of Ahuja. What model from Dayton?
It was the dayton ps180-8 point source driver in a tl cabinet. Dollar for dollar the dayton is no match for the ahuja when it comes to presentation and liveliness. Actually im sorry im comparing apples to oranges, but why in the hell would one spend 5 times for something which is only "unnisa-beesa" from the ahuja?:p
 
Also please share the baffle dimensions.
Its a folded baffle design. The centre is 4*2ft and the side folds are 4*1ft. They are placed about 3 ft from the wall. I tried simulating in edge and basta which gave me a hazy idea of the size, following this i used cardboard for mounting and experimented till i got the right size and placement. Took a whole day to do just this. Its exhausting but totally worth the effort. I have made my final baffles from 18mm particle board. Will finish lt in the following days.
I had my nephew visit me yesterday and i had him audition them. He is also an audio enthusiast and a musician. I did not tell him about the price of the driver or its make. He listened to some of his recordings and i kid you not, the smile on his face was priceless:p. His initial guesses for the price of the speakers were in five figures! Hehhe.
 
Dear friends,
Full range speakers are those whose cabinets do not have tweeters or woofers.
They may have 1 or more full range drivers or dual cone speakers.
They usually lack low end Bass extension but are usually excellent performers when mated with a suitable subwoofer or two...
Sibilance is usually minimal in these speakers.
Since there is no overlapping of frequencies as normally seen between Tweeter/midrange/woofer in cheaper 2/3 way speaker towers, sound seems more consistent and the presence is more realistic.
I will start this thread talking about the Bose 161, a true full ranger with fantastic 3 dimensional imaging. But as expected, they lack bass and require a dedicated sub with which, they are truly world class.
And, if you are going to use a subwoofer, they will not burn a hole in your wallet.
They have 2 large excursion 4" drivers in each cabinet.
But they, when installed decently, have a rare quality of beautiful 3D imaging which crossed over 2/3 way speakers really lack.
Frankly, They are among the best i have ever heard.
Now I have made a beginning.. now I welcome fellow members to post your love/hate relationships with true full rangers.
I have also heard some awesomely decent sounding dual cone driver speakers. I am including dual cone speakers in this genre.
So friends, please post your love hate relationships with full rangers.
Looking forward to all your posts,
Yours,
Subcenter2009

Hello Subcenter2009,

You haven't responded to the thread that has grown quite a bit. I just hope that you are well. I have no problem with you being a silent observer.

I contributed to your thread by sharing at least one design option that will give a 'true' fullrange experience as it produces top bass, great presence and sweet treble all in a single enclosure and without having to get into a crossover design.

As you mentioned before, the sibilance is one property for listening to full range speakers. It makes the vocals realistic and treble a joy to listen to rather than being 'attracting' for first 2minutes and irritating there after.

It seems that we have two things in common: love for full range speakers and Bose.

Earlier you mentioned several models of Bose including the legendary 901 but made no mention of the acoustimass speaker sets.
Allow me to share my thoughts on these two:

Bose 901: This, to my knowledge, is the only Stereo speaker/ enclosure design, in the world, that allows you to 'hear' BOTH the speakers from ANY listening position! So besides being a fullrange speaker design, with all its advantages, it allows 'stereo from anywhere' as a USP.
1/9 of the total sound is made to reach our ears directly from the speaker and 8/9 through multiple reflections, thus resembling a LIVE sound stage.

So will my post # 16 be valid for Bose 901 also? Of-course!!
Bose 901 is never sold as a speaker set. It is always accompanied by its own equalizer. It was passive, earlier and is active, more recently. But I am not 100% sure of this.
It is this equalizer that helps overcome the short comings of the full range speaker and allows it to be used with ANY amplifier.
Remove the equalizer and Bhuss@@#%*#, the magic is gone!!!

So can we remove the equalizer and still retain the magic by using a valve amplifer or 10% of the worlds' specially designed amplifiers?
This is the question I will leave open. The owners of 901 can perhaps answer this.

Acoustimass Speaker System: This is not just a sat-sub type of a speaker system. There is more to it. The sub, or the acoustimass module as it is called, receives fullrange signal and it produces 'band-pass' output by an 'acoustic filter' in the form of its enclosure design. This eliminates almost all of the drawbacks associated with passive crossover filter design such as component tolerances, drift over temperature and in-efficiency. Both designs, however, retain one common feature: complex design! :(

More details of the acoustimass speaker system:
The woofer design uses an acoustic filter and hence this 2.1CH sat-sub design allows operation from only 2.0CH amplifier!

Remember, since the woofer receives the sum of left and right channels, this summing after the power stage does introduce crosstalk!! :(

I have used the Bose Acoustimass III and V speakers and driven them through my 3CH amp described here and the audioDSP described here.
No more cross-talk!! ;)

The acoustimass speaker system can still be treated as a fullrange system for the reason that Bose themselves rightly put it:
The crossover is shifted well below the vocal range, where it is most damaging, to a region where our ears are most direction-insensitive!
Do you agree?

In fact, my speaker system design that I have described here is also based on the same design principle.


Well, I hope that you will add more features that I may have missed and happy fullrange listening!

Regards,

Ravindra.
 
drgb,
Any update on pics ?

Full range admirers, please pitch in and share your experience with FR. So far, we have discussed about Dayton, Bose and Ahuja drivers in this thread and I am sure more to come.
 
Hello everyone,
Sorry i could not update the thread as i have been travelling.
I lended my OBs to my nephew who has been utilising his off days on improving them.
Will post pictures and some videos when i get back!
Thanks and have a great day:)
 
I would couple this Ahuja 12" FR with a helper woofer and experiment crossing anything from 250Hz down to 100Hz in real time room response and trust my ears.

No JBLs or any other setup would ever be needed for being musical !

When you add the helping woofer, the FR will sound warmer and if you cross it intelligently and biamp, you may have option of switching off the woofer anytime and just enjoy the FR.

I would do all above in OB setup, and run FR unfiltered.

OB bass if done right, its another experience to be felt.
Hi Yogibear
What is helping woofer. Want to learn more about it
Thanks
 
How good it will sound if we add a Abuja as 15 x200 driver to the ahuja 12 inch full ranger . 12 inches running with out crossover and 15 inch woofer powered with a class d amp with lopass filter .

Most if the open baffle speakers i have seen are with huge front baffles but speakers like trio from pure audio project have comparatively smaller baffle . Do they tweak in cross to compensate small baffle?
 
Notwithstanding the enclosure diy thing being discussed, one of the best full range speakers I have heard, are clones based on Diatone P610. Bass was not too deep but sufficient for most music. Not for House music lovers. High frequencies extended enough. The real magic was the midrange. Very involving sound.
 
Hello everyone,
Sorry i could not update the thread as i have been travelling.
I lended my OBs to my nephew who has been utilising his off days on improving them.
Will post pictures and some videos when i get back!
Thanks and have a great day:)

waiting :D:D:D
 
drgb,
Any update on pics ?

Full range admirers, please pitch in and share your experience with FR. So far, we have discussed about Dayton, Bose and Ahuja drivers in this thread and I am sure more to come.
I used both SK12FRX and DX12F200. Everything good that is said about SK12FRX in this thread is equally applicable to DX12F200 as well.
How ever, my own personal experience says these drivers struggle a bit when it comes to Fast beat electronic music, Hard Rock etc.
Any thing kind of slow, instrumental music,..... these drivers are awesome !!!
I have to yet try the phase plug suggestion from @yogibear to handle the narrow HF dispersion
 
If a driver cannot play fast paced music, there’s a fundamental flaw.

I can understand drivers having limited extension and not being able to play low. But if it cannot keep up speed with the music being played it’s a complete no no for me
 
Be mentally prepared to lose the driver as Phase plug experiment can also go haywire. Larger FR do suffer from narrow HF dispersion. However 8” FRD are wonderful in all aspects and I find them less bright and sweeter in vocals. I am still wondering how your experiment with the dipole horn go ?
Im both curious, and hesitant on phase plug. il try it some time...

Regarding dipole i couldn't get more time for further testing. Il update soon...
 
If a driver cannot play fast paced music, there’s a fundamental flaw.

I can understand drivers having limited extension and not being able to play low. But if it cannot keep up speed with the music being played it’s a complete no no for me
For songs like COLOR TO THE MOON-ALLAN TAYLER, LONG AFTER YOU'RE GONE etc, this driver did a brilliant job. I was really surprised !!!

For songs like BOULEVARD OF BROKEN DREAMS, this drivers struggle to present instrument separation properly. Fast beat music sounded a little bit mixed up instead of being distinct.

Ravindra Desai also commented in one of his threads that this driver is not much suitable for rock kind of music. I'm not sure if his observation is similar to mine.

However I'm absolutely satisfied with the performance of both Sk12Frx and Dx12F200 for their price !!!
 
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