I tried speaker wires. Used them bare. So connectors didn’t come into place. If connectors are used, my guess is it will include the length of the connectors too
Fulton Length Wires
- Thread starter Hari Iyer
- Start date
Subbu68
Well-Known Member
D is the distance between the two conductors
If conductors come close capacitance will increase, keep them far low capacitance
circuitglobe.com
Now no one speaks about the poor inductance
if wires are kept far inductance will increase, keep them close aha low inductance
www.electrical4u.com
inductance between wires would be a affect HF, inductance in series would attenuate LF????????
endless possibilities
So come to a sensible compromise
If conductors come close capacitance will increase, keep them far low capacitance
What is the Capacitance of a Transmission Line? - Capacitance of Two-wire Line & Symmetrical Three-phase Line - Circuit Globe
Transmission line conductors exhibit the capacitance with respect to each other due to the potential difference. The conductors of the transmission line act as a parallel plate of the capacitor and the air is just like the dielectric medium between them.
circuitglobe.com
Now no one speaks about the poor inductance
if wires are kept far inductance will increase, keep them close aha low inductance
Inductance in Transmission Line | Electrical4U
The page describes inductance in transmission lines including reason of transmission line inductance, calculation of inductance of the single conductor, inductance in single phase and three phase transmission lines.
www.electrical4u.com
inductance between wires would be a affect HF, inductance in series would attenuate LF????????
endless possibilities
So come to a sensible compromise
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
It's supposed to be the length of the wire MINUS the connectors.
Subbu68
Well-Known Member
yup, I meant amplitude since thats what the impedance will do. any idea on how much and impedance of say a 50Hz wave can be impacted ?
Subbu68
Well-Known Member
Finally got who created the 1.5m..it was steve nugent of empirical audio. Quite a controversial figure and everything he said can be taken with a proverbial pinch of salt and his intent was primarily to sell his own devices !
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Here is his explanation: https://positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
This is all pretty easy for me to explain to you all. Your understanding is incomplete.
You folks have to realize that the testing done by my first audio Mentor, was done on baboons, who have a much wider frequency response compared to a human. 20 and 60 kHZ test signals !! Also, the wire lengths to make them UNsick was determined in his Laboratory with electronic test instruments. Mr. Fulton was VERY good at using instruments. The Tektronics sales reps would go to him, to learn implementations for other potential users, as we see on the FMI memorial website.
The reason why a Fulton Length was never subjectively evaluated successfully until 42 years after his death, was because an adequate high fidelity system was not available, to hear such differences.
My second audio mentor's system was good enough for him to make such determinations. All other systems are simply not !! Heck, he was even able to ascertain that two lengths were better than one, in speaker leads and in Power Cords !! That is not intuitive. The ANSWER exists as a result of two main technical reasons, and additionally others :
First of all, all of the caps in his tube amps are multiple bypassed, to play the top end properly. Everyone else's tube amps in audio , every other one world-wide, likely is not !! Dennis is the best person in the world, to my knowledge, in knowing how to bypass an amplifier. Everyone else is unaware, and remains to this day AFAICT, light years behind. Why did I drive 4,000 plus miles round trip to him in 2019, with my new KT88 build? To have him do the " final" bypassing. We all spent a day and a half doing so. Voodoo, hardly !! I call it superior design implementation.
Secondly, only amps with a L.S.E.S. ( Low Stored Energy Supply ) power supply, which is also properly wired, can feed a Finals tube such that it has the proper B+ to supply to the output tube's instantaneous needs, while playing musical transients. ALL other tube power supplies, are incapable, "bogus", and will not cut the mustard sonically, when listening to music playback on good speakers. LOL, ask Hari ask Gudebrod.
ADDITIONALLY, my second audio Mentors hi fi system, puts most others ( people will normally hear ) to extreme shame. Ten point seven five cubic feet MLTLs ( mass loaded transmission lines ) made of one inch Baltic Birch. Using, better than professional ALTEC drivers, ie : the newest GPA 604 drivers. A two-way point source speaker with a single LARGE radiating area. His interconnect, from his music source to the attenuator and amps, was custom made at a $12,000 USD cost. How much did we spend, on ours ??
Once a year, for ten out of twelve years, I traveled the distance from Kansas City to Denver, to hear such a set up at RMAF ( Rocky Mountain Audio Fests ) weekend shows. I am the ONLY person who did this so consistently, to LISTEN and become familiar with said set-up. So I am speaking from many hours of direct listening experience. All the folks here on HFV posting, have not had such listening time.
Hari Iyer has SOME of this listening experience, depending upon his implementation. I do not know how much gets lost in his " first DIY tube amp" build translation. Hopefully little. His 114 1/4 inch wires are OK, I made them.
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Have I insulted all of you? That was not my intent. I am just telling you all the absolute truth, based upon many DIRECT LISTENING EXPERIENCES. Maybe I should be kicked off this Forum, which this one single post could do. That is quite a feat. Not unusual , it has happened to me at least four times before - and ONLY for the same exact misunderstanding !! So stupid. Gary has been trying for a year to eliminate my posts. In my opinion, he does NOT care about any of you !! Only shaming me, and showing how superior he is ! He has never even built a tube amp, nor has he ever heard any of what I discuss.
I have found the Moderators, F.M.s, and people of India to be different, in many subtle ways superior, than to the mass public on Forums in the USA. I have posted here for two years. HFV has given me a lovely opportunity to share with you all, step by step and with good internal photos, my 6005 amplifier build journey. My HFV F.M. feedback score is extensive - as far as likes.
It was SOOO cool, to be able to openly tell you how two 10 Ohm chokes, in the original prototype, didn't " cut it ", and you saw me go to two 6 Ohm chokes, to be happy . ( 20 Ohms, to 12 Ohms. ) It was also cool to go to an extra set of D.F. Final Filters, on sensitive area B+ feeds, and share with you all, how it finally made me happy. Quadruple filtering paved the way for those new larger sized lazer cut chassis to be developed. ALL of this 2021 topology is in the 2022 TRIPLE schematics I have been posting. No other amps you see in tube audio are built this way. None.
Yes, you can get rid of me. Or I can stay, be a " nice boy " in my posting. I'd try to help others on HFV on a long term basis, discover what I have learned, directly experienced, and heard. Its all up to you . I would like to have other audio people, and not just Hari and Gudebrod benefit, and I am available to assist, free, time permitting. How well do you read me, and my intentions, now that you know how I feel ?? Thanks!
Jeff
PS, Yogibear : I have had a day to ponder your kind visit-invite to Hari. Here is what I think. Within the first 30 minutes of Hari being in front of your system, he will become very bored. He will immediately miss the results of a L.S.E.S. supply on transient response, and dynamic peaks, and he will soon after miss the high frequency extension of his Multiple bypassing and 12+12+14 AWG Mil Spec wires at 114 1/4 inches.
Certainly do have him over, but for the benefit of both of you audiophiles, allow him to stay two days. Give a careful listen to his amps and speaker wiring on your speakers. YOU certainly need to hear this, as the ONLY way to ever fully understand.
No need for you to "experiment" on your own. I have experimented with all of this for you, and it has taken me the past 44 years, with two excellent Audio mentors, to arrive. This will also reinforce Hari's direct experiences, visiting you as I suggest. Is a motor vehicle available to Hari, to hold such equipment?? Invite Prem to come along with Hari !!! ALL you folks are each very good people, and I say this all in a loving way to you. Hearing for yourself will allow you to understand.
You folks have to realize that the testing done by my first audio Mentor, was done on baboons, who have a much wider frequency response compared to a human. 20 and 60 kHZ test signals !! Also, the wire lengths to make them UNsick was determined in his Laboratory with electronic test instruments. Mr. Fulton was VERY good at using instruments. The Tektronics sales reps would go to him, to learn implementations for other potential users, as we see on the FMI memorial website.
The reason why a Fulton Length was never subjectively evaluated successfully until 42 years after his death, was because an adequate high fidelity system was not available, to hear such differences.
My second audio mentor's system was good enough for him to make such determinations. All other systems are simply not !! Heck, he was even able to ascertain that two lengths were better than one, in speaker leads and in Power Cords !! That is not intuitive. The ANSWER exists as a result of two main technical reasons, and additionally others :
First of all, all of the caps in his tube amps are multiple bypassed, to play the top end properly. Everyone else's tube amps in audio , every other one world-wide, likely is not !! Dennis is the best person in the world, to my knowledge, in knowing how to bypass an amplifier. Everyone else is unaware, and remains to this day AFAICT, light years behind. Why did I drive 4,000 plus miles round trip to him in 2019, with my new KT88 build? To have him do the " final" bypassing. We all spent a day and a half doing so. Voodoo, hardly !! I call it superior design implementation.
Secondly, only amps with a L.S.E.S. ( Low Stored Energy Supply ) power supply, which is also properly wired, can feed a Finals tube such that it has the proper B+ to supply to the output tube's instantaneous needs, while playing musical transients. ALL other tube power supplies, are incapable, "bogus", and will not cut the mustard sonically, when listening to music playback on good speakers. LOL, ask Hari ask Gudebrod.
ADDITIONALLY, my second audio Mentors hi fi system, puts most others ( people will normally hear ) to extreme shame. Ten point seven five cubic feet MLTLs ( mass loaded transmission lines ) made of one inch Baltic Birch. Using, better than professional ALTEC drivers, ie : the newest GPA 604 drivers. A two-way point source speaker with a single LARGE radiating area. His interconnect, from his music source to the attenuator and amps, was custom made at a $12,000 USD cost. How much did we spend, on ours ??
Once a year, for ten out of twelve years, I traveled the distance from Kansas City to Denver, to hear such a set up at RMAF ( Rocky Mountain Audio Fests ) weekend shows. I am the ONLY person who did this so consistently, to LISTEN and become familiar with said set-up. So I am speaking from many hours of direct listening experience. All the folks here on HFV posting, have not had such listening time.
Hari Iyer has SOME of this listening experience, depending upon his implementation. I do not know how much gets lost in his " first DIY tube amp" build translation. Hopefully little. His 114 1/4 inch wires are OK, I made them.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Have I insulted all of you? That was not my intent. I am just telling you all the absolute truth, based upon many DIRECT LISTENING EXPERIENCES. Maybe I should be kicked off this Forum, which this one single post could do. That is quite a feat. Not unusual , it has happened to me at least four times before - and ONLY for the same exact misunderstanding !! So stupid. Gary has been trying for a year to eliminate my posts. In my opinion, he does NOT care about any of you !! Only shaming me, and showing how superior he is ! He has never even built a tube amp, nor has he ever heard any of what I discuss.
I have found the Moderators, F.M.s, and people of India to be different, in many subtle ways superior, than to the mass public on Forums in the USA. I have posted here for two years. HFV has given me a lovely opportunity to share with you all, step by step and with good internal photos, my 6005 amplifier build journey. My HFV F.M. feedback score is extensive - as far as likes.
It was SOOO cool, to be able to openly tell you how two 10 Ohm chokes, in the original prototype, didn't " cut it ", and you saw me go to two 6 Ohm chokes, to be happy . ( 20 Ohms, to 12 Ohms. ) It was also cool to go to an extra set of D.F. Final Filters, on sensitive area B+ feeds, and share with you all, how it finally made me happy. Quadruple filtering paved the way for those new larger sized lazer cut chassis to be developed. ALL of this 2021 topology is in the 2022 TRIPLE schematics I have been posting. No other amps you see in tube audio are built this way. None.
Yes, you can get rid of me. Or I can stay, be a " nice boy " in my posting. I'd try to help others on HFV on a long term basis, discover what I have learned, directly experienced, and heard. Its all up to you . I would like to have other audio people, and not just Hari and Gudebrod benefit, and I am available to assist, free, time permitting. How well do you read me, and my intentions, now that you know how I feel ?? Thanks!
Jeff
PS, Yogibear : I have had a day to ponder your kind visit-invite to Hari. Here is what I think. Within the first 30 minutes of Hari being in front of your system, he will become very bored. He will immediately miss the results of a L.S.E.S. supply on transient response, and dynamic peaks, and he will soon after miss the high frequency extension of his Multiple bypassing and 12+12+14 AWG Mil Spec wires at 114 1/4 inches.
Certainly do have him over, but for the benefit of both of you audiophiles, allow him to stay two days. Give a careful listen to his amps and speaker wiring on your speakers. YOU certainly need to hear this, as the ONLY way to ever fully understand.
No need for you to "experiment" on your own. I have experimented with all of this for you, and it has taken me the past 44 years, with two excellent Audio mentors, to arrive. This will also reinforce Hari's direct experiences, visiting you as I suggest. Is a motor vehicle available to Hari, to hold such equipment?? Invite Prem to come along with Hari !!! ALL you folks are each very good people, and I say this all in a loving way to you. Hearing for yourself will allow you to understand.
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Jeff, we have heard you several times. Pl stop going on and on about how only you and your mentor and your select few followers know what music reproduction is. It’s getting tiresome now. Let people decide what they want to hear. You are happy with what you hear. Good for you. Similarly we are all happy with what we hear. So just let’s leave it that.
Fine Prem,
But in my own above post, you hear me completely explain and are given the key reasons to understand WHY.
There is no way to tell my audio story, without insulting others, even though that is not at all the intent.
Jeff
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That is fine Yogibear,
Yes, where you want to go in audio, is totally up to you !!
Visit Hari sometimes, late in the year.
Jeff
Hi Raghu !!
It is unclear to me how the spade connectors are accounted for.
Mr. Fulton consistently used 57 1/8th inches with me on many many phone conversations, and in Seminars he gave. Jack Anderson has mentioned 57.2 inches. Perhaps this difference was a half way point up the spade lug's barrel.
The reason why you, Prem, myself and others won't hear such differences has to do with the fact that we don't run a system such as Dennis Fraker's. It took over four decades, for someone, and only one person I knew of - finally in 2020, to subjectively evaluate this. This makes total sense to me. It is interesting also !!!! How amazing to me, that he heard TWO increments as sounding better than one, which is counter intuitive . But then, even the late Pierre Sprey rants about any 8 foot speaker lead EATING any four foot lead..........of the same material, and many times tested.
All interesting!! And we have Shun Mook at 14 feet, which is 56 inches times three, PURELY by listening .
Regards,
Jeff
If I understand correctly 25 nanoseconds rise time, which is basically half wave. So full wave is 50 nanoseconds. Basically it means a 20 Mhz signal. That's my understanding and I may be wrong because my specialization is piezoelectricity and ceramics in materials science. So anyone with strong fundamentals correct me because at this moment i have 2 many pegs many of questionable quality. The question I have is if the digital signal for SPDIF is in 20 Mhz range?
calculations done using bc in a terminal
EDIT:
Sorry. 50 nanoseconds will be to rise from 0 to full wave and back to zero. To go to negative and back it will be another 50 nanoseconds. So the frequency will be 10 Mhz
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@drlowmu , if you cannot tell a story without insulting we would prefer you not tell the story irrespective of the intent.
Please do consider this a warning
Please do consider this a warning
Folks like Yogibear are someone most of us respect due to the knowledge he has shared over the years on various topics.
I just was sent this, and read it ten minutes ago. ALL of the " F1" high end cable manufacturers mentioned, were preceded by my first audio Mentor, Mr. Robert W. Fulton, who in our times, could be said to have invented better wires for audio. I was there !!!
When I met him at a audio store seminar, San Diego, CA in 1978, I said to myself..." either this is easily the best guy in all of audio that I have ever seen, or he is a total fraud ". I found out !! It was almost like a Father - Son relationship that followed, till his death on February 13, 1988. He was often ridiculed back then.
I liked this article, brand new to me, and perhaps you.
https://www.pmamedia.org/en/home/pu...e1swp5XDzgGZ_aATTf6xnYl3YacVP8RhdAVe4_aHq31A4
When I met him at a audio store seminar, San Diego, CA in 1978, I said to myself..." either this is easily the best guy in all of audio that I have ever seen, or he is a total fraud ". I found out !! It was almost like a Father - Son relationship that followed, till his death on February 13, 1988. He was often ridiculed back then.
I liked this article, brand new to me, and perhaps you.
https://www.pmamedia.org/en/home/pu...e1swp5XDzgGZ_aATTf6xnYl3YacVP8RhdAVe4_aHq31A4
Rise time is the time taken for a rising waveform to go from 10% to 90% of its peak amplitude.
Let's assume you don't mean to insult others, but then you go on to say
Baboons don't hear beyond 700 Hz. Yes they can make vocals little beyond what humans can make
So not sure the research your mentor did on baboons, how he figured out the frequency range that baboons could hear, how he figured out what baboons heard, was he in direct touch with them. Some links to his research would help.
So when people have heard cables contrary to fulton lengths, one may assume that what is said about Fulton lenghts may not be true.
There is nothing in this world that happens without an explanation. For some we don't have answers. For many we do have answers. For any phenomena where we don't have answers, the best is to leave it to science and people more knowledgeable than us, regardless of our own personal experience. For thousands of years people believed that earth is flat and is the center of the universe because that's what they experienced. Now we know that's not true.
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Ok. Learnt something today. But even then, it means that the transmission of the SPDIF is in Mhz region. Is this true and can someone confirm this?
Dear arj,
Thanks for your warning. I certainly thought about not discussing Yogibear, I knew that would make my post more acceptable. But I decided to say what I did, to better make a point, about hearing new things.
Your kind warning is far better than me being instantly dismissed, and having all of one's threads erased, after 240,000 plus views.
I only needed to do this full disclosure to people once, so that some people will fully have my facts and perhaps understand. I appreciated the opportunity.
I will comply and not insult. Once people begin to personally hear such things, I believe the whole topic becomes a non issue. Lovely Hari Iyer is a perfect local example.
Jeff
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Yes, it is in MHz region. See the pdf paper in the second search result. The clock speed differs for different sampling rates.
2 times x X kHz signal sampling rate x 64 = Y MHz, is the clock speed. For 192 kHz the clock speed is about 24 MHz.
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