spirovious
Well-Known Member
Hi thevortex,
Any solidestate amp for classical + Bollywood music(D2X + Tannoy F1)?
Any solidestate amp for classical + Bollywood music(D2X + Tannoy F1)?
Hi-Fi system for Indian classical music
- Thread starter sanjgupt
- Start date
unleash_me
Well-Known Member
Vortex, RS1 is a very good speaker that does so many things right and undoubtedly it sounds great with marantz. If the budget permits, one should get it by all means.
In the above context (tight budget/used route) however, we didn't have a choice of mix and match. So (luckly) we ended up listening to the usher/marantz combo for a few hours. Incidentally we were on our way to check out the RSI/RS-04 system my friend wanted to check out with me. But I guess the whole glossy black speakers n amp did make the first impression on him and the music that followed sealed the deal.
I'm not very familiar with the Alpha B1s. Have heard it few times but I don't think I can make any relative comments based on those few sessions only.
In the above context (tight budget/used route) however, we didn't have a choice of mix and match. So (luckly) we ended up listening to the usher/marantz combo for a few hours. Incidentally we were on our way to check out the RSI/RS-04 system my friend wanted to check out with me. But I guess the whole glossy black speakers n amp did make the first impression on him and the music that followed sealed the deal.
I'm not very familiar with the Alpha B1s. Have heard it few times but I don't think I can make any relative comments based on those few sessions only.
I enjoyed a lot of classical and Indian film music both with my Marantz Receiver as well as the NAD C372. In many ways, I would say the NAD would work for a lot of film music. For classical music, I would still think a Marantz integrated or even a Music Hall integrated amp would do wonders.
I know people who praise Creek amps for their reproduction of classical music but I have not heard them.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Tanny F1 bright???? Nooooooooo..
Its is not as soft as Wharf 9.1.
Its actually neutral,but many consider it as Bright.
If you have any friend in germany try new speaker system by grundig - audiorama 9000 - it is a large ball like system floor standing or ceiling hanging. Grundig say "if a sound is coming from all directions it is live or from audiorama" basically this is a re-introduction.
Grundig were earlier manufacturing this in 1970
Grundig were earlier manufacturing this in 1970
Hi Sanjay,
I may sound a bit off here but the genre of music you are talking about (Indian Classical) is one of the most difficult genre to reproduce for most enty-mid level brand!!! You might be surprised but thats a truth I have learnt after owning and listening to many systems. One might argue that most decent setups would not have any trouble playing hindustani but believe me, most speakers are voiced around western music and instruments and when you play hindustani on them, they sound good but westernized!!
And it is logical, because the target audience for most brands are those who listen to western music and not Hindustani.
Guitar should sound nice, Sitar doesnt matter.
Good Hindustani music requires excellent high frequency extension and true tones.
IMO, with your budget I would buy a QUAD 12L (40k) + Norge Concerto Gold (10k). If you listen to rock/pop as well then you may go for Epos M12.2.
Keep some money aside for the stands.
Whatever you buy, do listen to these two speakers to get a reference of how an "appropriate" speaker reproduces hindustani and then go ahead an compare other speakers to it.
I may sound a bit off here but the genre of music you are talking about (Indian Classical) is one of the most difficult genre to reproduce for most enty-mid level brand!!! You might be surprised but thats a truth I have learnt after owning and listening to many systems. One might argue that most decent setups would not have any trouble playing hindustani but believe me, most speakers are voiced around western music and instruments and when you play hindustani on them, they sound good but westernized!!
And it is logical, because the target audience for most brands are those who listen to western music and not Hindustani.
Guitar should sound nice, Sitar doesnt matter.
Good Hindustani music requires excellent high frequency extension and true tones.
IMO, with your budget I would buy a QUAD 12L (40k) + Norge Concerto Gold (10k). If you listen to rock/pop as well then you may go for Epos M12.2.
Keep some money aside for the stands.
Whatever you buy, do listen to these two speakers to get a reference of how an "appropriate" speaker reproduces hindustani and then go ahead an compare other speakers to it.
I agree with most of what you said above. The suggestion of Quad 12L and Epos 12.2 is excellent. However, the 12.2 is no longer available new. I think the new model is 12i or something. I have heard both the Epos, they are very similar, however, the newer one may have slightly better bass. Also for the Quad, the new model is 12L2, I think. Original stands of Quad are expensive though, if you think of the proportion of the speaker price.
Also the thing about high freq extension is very true. The speaker has to do that without sounding bright though.
I have never heard any Norge, so cannot comment on that.
Regards.
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spirovious
Well-Known Member
Hmm.. I would be interested to know why Asit said that. He must have had a reason. But personally speaking, zingy treble hiding under the guise of 'extended high frequency' is among the first things that goes out the window with good Indian classical music reproduction. Play a violin or a sitar or even a mandolin and you would not be able to listen to it past half an hour, if that.
Personally speaking I enjoy control over the treble and low frequencies and love a speaker which does it all conveying the impressions of holding a lot back in abeyance. Just like a good car gives you the feeling of abundant power even though you are not pushing the pedal 'to the metal' - so to speak.
I might add - I dont know that it is just the speaker which contributes to that effortless listenability. It is probably a sum effect of all the components of the system. Right now I have come to a place in life where I can recognize this when present but not to a place where I could actually recommend ways to get there!
Ditto! I auditioned the Pioneer PD-D6-J with burr brown and it had this haze of treble constantly SSSSSSSSsssing through the music. And it won an EISA award in 2008!
I too dislike uncontrolled treble (one of my reasons for being happy with full range speakers) yet enjoyed the superb frequency extension into the inaudible spectrum provided by the GG preamp when I auditioned it.
A sense of control provides supreme enjoyment!!
Cheers
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Well thats why system matching may require.
Hi Gobble, Vortex and Spiro,
I have very ordinary knowledge about equipments. You guys have certainly heard a lot more than I have and have also acquired a lot more knowledge than I have. At times I also wonder if I know anything about music, honestly, but I try to understand everything about these equipments (speakers, amps and anything else) through music and only through music and a major portion of it through Indian classical music. In the following, I'll try to explain in my own way what exactly I meant.
First a few clarifications: 1) the sound is definitely the product of the whole chain, but still the speakers are the ones converting the electrical energy into mechanical vibrations (producing the sound) and as such are the most important part of the tonality and the sound signature. However, system matching is extremely important, and the ultimate sound is a sum total of all equipments of the chain, needless to say.
2) High frequency extensions are NOT synonymous with a treble domination. I do not know what Dr. Bass meant, but what I mean is explained below.
The basis of Indian classical music is the system of ragas and the basis of ragas is melody. And the melody is defined only in a so-called harmonic scale. Please refer back to my post explaining the harmonic scale (as opposed to an equally tempered scale or the keyboard scale) in the "AR Rehman" thread. Also try to read my long post in reply to gobble's long post in the "Ali Akbar Khan" thread.
The basis of the harmonic scale is again the tonic note what we call Sa or Sadaja. If you analyse the word Sadaja, it is shat+ja, meaning it is the generator ("ja") of six ("shat") other notes.
Although, given the fundamental frequency of the tonic note (Sa), frequencies of all other notes except for Ma and Pa can vary depending on the context (that is, the way they are defined), let's take the example of the definition of the notes of the raga Bhoopali (Mohanam) in my post in the "Ali Akbar" thread.
Take S=f (which means the fundamental freq of the note Sa is f Hz). Then as given in that post, G = (5/4)f, and D= (5/3)f.
Now why would the notes G and D feel in tune? The answer lies in the basis of the harmonic scale. Some higher harmonics of these notes will be the same as some other higher harmonics of the note Sa. This is THE only reason why they sound very much in tune. This is also the very basis of melody. If these higher harmonics are absent, melody will NOT be formed.
Now if f=300 Hz, then the 4th harmonic of G is at 4x(5/4)f = 1500 Hz which is the 5th harmonic of the Sa. The 8th harmonic of G is 3000 Hz which is same as the 10th harmonic of the Sa.
Similarly you shall find that the 3rd, 6th and the 9th harmonic of D have the frequencies 1500 Hz, 3000 Hz and 4500 Hz which are precisely the 5th, 10th and the 15th harmonic of the Sa.
So basically what this means is that if one is singing only the note Sa, if enough voice culture is done, it will actually include harmonics of many other notes, most importantly of those notes included in a particular raga that is being performed. That is why, in a raga exposition, after exhibiting a lot of movements of notes appropriate for the particular raga, the artiste (say a vocalist) comes and stays at the tonic Sa and if it's done well (requires years of practice) it is a mesmerizing experience because it's so full of tune (because it has all the relevant harmonics).
I heard a story about Ustad Abdul Karim Khan from my mother in my childhood. He was performing in mid 1930's in University Institute Hall (1 minute from our parental home where I grew up) and my mother was present among the audience. After a detailed raga exposition the Ustad stood at the higher octave Sa and held his breadth their at that note for a long time. It was so beautifully tuneful that the audience spontaneously cried, including my mother.
If you have patiently read through till now, you should get the drift. Those harmonics are extremely important for the melody which in turn is so very important for Indian classical music raga exposition. These extend definitely through upper midrange to lower treble for a well trained voice. For instruments, obviously they can go higher than that.
BTW, the above has no relation to a treble dominated or bright music. That will actually happen if the higher harmonics would have higher amplitudes than those of the fundamental or the lower harmonics. But that's not what is usually desirable, because that would take the body out of the sound. It takes years of voice training and culture and breathing exercises to have a trained voice that would sound fullsome yet full of all those higher harmonics so that it sounds in full tune.
I have tried to explain things as much as possible in the limited scope in a public forum. I'd say that the harmonic scale is CRITICAL for our music, without it our music will NOT exist in its traditional form.
Last weekend I went to audition Vasu's (forum member myriad's) full Cadence set-up (VA-1 amp and Avita speakers). Although the approach to sound is very different from my Leben+Canton or even a full Lyrita system, it has a more muted sound, however it has those high freq extensions (read, proper harmonics) and sound quite good for Indian classical music, although a very restrained and subtle performance and not bright at all.
At the final stages of his life, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan used to say something like this (not exact quote): For me I hear all the music just by uttering Sa.
Regards.
I have very ordinary knowledge about equipments. You guys have certainly heard a lot more than I have and have also acquired a lot more knowledge than I have. At times I also wonder if I know anything about music, honestly, but I try to understand everything about these equipments (speakers, amps and anything else) through music and only through music and a major portion of it through Indian classical music. In the following, I'll try to explain in my own way what exactly I meant.
First a few clarifications: 1) the sound is definitely the product of the whole chain, but still the speakers are the ones converting the electrical energy into mechanical vibrations (producing the sound) and as such are the most important part of the tonality and the sound signature. However, system matching is extremely important, and the ultimate sound is a sum total of all equipments of the chain, needless to say.
2) High frequency extensions are NOT synonymous with a treble domination. I do not know what Dr. Bass meant, but what I mean is explained below.
The basis of Indian classical music is the system of ragas and the basis of ragas is melody. And the melody is defined only in a so-called harmonic scale. Please refer back to my post explaining the harmonic scale (as opposed to an equally tempered scale or the keyboard scale) in the "AR Rehman" thread. Also try to read my long post in reply to gobble's long post in the "Ali Akbar Khan" thread.
The basis of the harmonic scale is again the tonic note what we call Sa or Sadaja. If you analyse the word Sadaja, it is shat+ja, meaning it is the generator ("ja") of six ("shat") other notes.
Although, given the fundamental frequency of the tonic note (Sa), frequencies of all other notes except for Ma and Pa can vary depending on the context (that is, the way they are defined), let's take the example of the definition of the notes of the raga Bhoopali (Mohanam) in my post in the "Ali Akbar" thread.
Take S=f (which means the fundamental freq of the note Sa is f Hz). Then as given in that post, G = (5/4)f, and D= (5/3)f.
Now why would the notes G and D feel in tune? The answer lies in the basis of the harmonic scale. Some higher harmonics of these notes will be the same as some other higher harmonics of the note Sa. This is THE only reason why they sound very much in tune. This is also the very basis of melody. If these higher harmonics are absent, melody will NOT be formed.
Now if f=300 Hz, then the 4th harmonic of G is at 4x(5/4)f = 1500 Hz which is the 5th harmonic of the Sa. The 8th harmonic of G is 3000 Hz which is same as the 10th harmonic of the Sa.
Similarly you shall find that the 3rd, 6th and the 9th harmonic of D have the frequencies 1500 Hz, 3000 Hz and 4500 Hz which are precisely the 5th, 10th and the 15th harmonic of the Sa.
So basically what this means is that if one is singing only the note Sa, if enough voice culture is done, it will actually include harmonics of many other notes, most importantly of those notes included in a particular raga that is being performed. That is why, in a raga exposition, after exhibiting a lot of movements of notes appropriate for the particular raga, the artiste (say a vocalist) comes and stays at the tonic Sa and if it's done well (requires years of practice) it is a mesmerizing experience because it's so full of tune (because it has all the relevant harmonics).
I heard a story about Ustad Abdul Karim Khan from my mother in my childhood. He was performing in mid 1930's in University Institute Hall (1 minute from our parental home where I grew up) and my mother was present among the audience. After a detailed raga exposition the Ustad stood at the higher octave Sa and held his breadth their at that note for a long time. It was so beautifully tuneful that the audience spontaneously cried, including my mother.
If you have patiently read through till now, you should get the drift. Those harmonics are extremely important for the melody which in turn is so very important for Indian classical music raga exposition. These extend definitely through upper midrange to lower treble for a well trained voice. For instruments, obviously they can go higher than that.
BTW, the above has no relation to a treble dominated or bright music. That will actually happen if the higher harmonics would have higher amplitudes than those of the fundamental or the lower harmonics. But that's not what is usually desirable, because that would take the body out of the sound. It takes years of voice training and culture and breathing exercises to have a trained voice that would sound fullsome yet full of all those higher harmonics so that it sounds in full tune.
I have tried to explain things as much as possible in the limited scope in a public forum. I'd say that the harmonic scale is CRITICAL for our music, without it our music will NOT exist in its traditional form.
Last weekend I went to audition Vasu's (forum member myriad's) full Cadence set-up (VA-1 amp and Avita speakers). Although the approach to sound is very different from my Leben+Canton or even a full Lyrita system, it has a more muted sound, however it has those high freq extensions (read, proper harmonics) and sound quite good for Indian classical music, although a very restrained and subtle performance and not bright at all.
At the final stages of his life, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan used to say something like this (not exact quote): For me I hear all the music just by uttering Sa.
Regards.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Thanks Asit for detailed explaination.
My mistake, may be I did not explain myself well enough
.When I said extended high frequency is very important for Hindustani, I did not mean it is more important than mids or lows. All I wanted to say is, for this genre of music high frequency extension becomes very important as there is a lot of upper octave information and their harmonics which if not reproduced well just doesnt do justice to this kind of music and robs it off the realism that was otherwise possible.
I am not an expert in raagas like Asit but when I hear a Sitar, Sarangi, Shehnai or even a Tabla, there is so much decay and air around them which is impossible to achieve if the highs are rolled off. It just doesnt sound as real.
And please do not relate high frequency extension to distortion (some people call it tizzy, zingy etc). Extension means clean extension and when that happens you hear a much more resolved and true HF, it can even sound sweet...no sense of fatigue at all.
I had mentioned in my earlier post that it would come as a surprise to many as why this genre is difficult to reproduce and Gobble your post illustrates that and if you do not take it as an offence and just as a friendly suggestion, your post also illustrates that you have not yet experienced Hindustani music on a "proper" setup. When I say proper, I dont mean expensive setup but an "appropriate" setup.
Someone has already mentioned how a Cadence Electrostat does it even though its laidback in nature. I have recommended the Quads because I have listened to them with various kind of music, while they suck while playing Rock/Pop stuff...they excel while playing Jazz, Indian Classical, Blues and other Acoustic music.
Epos are better all rounders but they dont excel in any genre.
As for amplifiers, at this budget one would not gain much by spending additional 15k for a NAD over a Norge (which is a very nice amp at the entry level) especially considering that a lower end speaker is not going to cut it.
Moreover it is easy to sell off the amp later and go for a real nice amp which the speakers will do justice to and vice versa.
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nosortf
Active Member
Most Indian classical I have heard India sounds nice on my old Grundig stereo music console. Modern audio systems and most Indian classical don't blend well for me. I use the console for all types of classical, east and west, and jazz too.
nosortf
nosortf
I was referring to a piece of gear that sounded zingy and "tizzy" specifically. No confusion here.
Good guess.
As long as you do not confuse my posing a question for the sake of furthering a discussion as the story of my life, you will do just fine ... My new DIY preamp that will be complete end of month has the needed high frequency extension with the qualities you mention. I will certainly listen more keenly for that added magic after that. :licklips:
Cheers
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
