Hit the moon with these speakers and a 20k amp

[Spidey]

Dear friends,

There is a phrase called "re-inventing the wheel".

I got this realisation today when I audtitioned some speakers.

As you all know, right now I have Dynaudio Audience 72 which may be costing 60k-65k or abouts.
To drive them I am searching an amp costing 1 lac+. As none of the NADs,Rotels or even cyrususes are doing it justice (refer to my other thread).

So I got thinking how much should you spend on speaker and how much on amplification.:indifferent14:

Here is my ex -

Setup 1 : my dynas + heavy amp : cost 1.5-2 L : satisfaction/VFM: 7/10.

Setup 2 : that I auditioned :
Mystery speakers (90k+) + Marantz 5003 amp (20-25k??) : cost 1.1L : satisfaction 8/10 to 8.5/10

( rest of this setup : CDP Jolida, Siltech IC and Vdh cables)

For pure stereo.

The point here is not what is the cost of Marantz 5003 or how good or bad it is. The point is even this 45 W amplification was kicking full life into the speakers.

So are we concentrating too much on the amplification ??

We have discarded/rejected all the CA/rotel/NAD/cyrus and gone to Bryston/Emotiva/MF/Stratos etc costing around a lac and above.
Do our speakers need such amplification ??

Shouldnt we choose our speakers the other way round ?

Spend more on speaker and then on amplification.:clapping:

Please give your views on this.

thanks

 

[suprateep]

absolutely spidey. 70% of the budgets should go on speakers, the remaining 25% on amp + CDP and around 2-3% on interconnects, speaker wires etc.

But there is a market for everything and high end audio market is mostly snakeoil - and people have money to spend.

 

[avidyarthy]

Thats something which had crossed my mind too ....

Heard the Harbeth Monitor 30 coupled to a teenyweeny unknown brand amp (a local UK made one .... size indicated it was <<< 100W) at my principal's residence in South Africa.

The sound was .......... :yahoo:

 

[suprateep]

which brings me to the fact that I need a speaker upgrade soon - only if my shares go north like the Sensex !!!

 

[stevieboy]

Or maybe its more about figuring out which components mate successfully with which components. Price is really no guarantee of satisfaction. Also, judging something purely by its wattage (you mention even 45 watts) is a pretty sure route to inaccurate/misleading judgements I'd say.

regards

 

[psychotropic]

yeah, there are lots of factors. the lesson must be that one must not let a single number or even a combination of numbers tell you whether or not an amp will work with a speaker.

 

[malvai]

Or maybe its more about figuring out which components mate successfully with which components. Price is really no guarantee of satisfaction. Also, judging something purely by its wattage (you mention even 45 watts) is a pretty sure route to inaccurate/misleading judgements I'd say.

regards

BINGO! Most people don't get this at all! Its all about system synergy. And IMHO, as one goes up up up on the ladder, with the component getting more and more revealing, a badly synergised component can make the entire set up sound less satisfying than a boom box....

 

[anm]

what are the mystery speakers??

 

[gobble]

I would say you have burnt your fingers once. Stop shopping. Take the DIY route.

Cheers

 

[square_wave]

Completely agree with Stevie and Malvai.

It is all about system synergy ! It has nothing to do with watts !
The difference between a well-designed amplifier and a regular integrated is not just about watts. Resolving details and communication of music in its purest form is Hi fidelity sound ! Now this can be achieved even with very low power amplifiers.

Good amplifiers cost money (unless you make it yourself). Now good amplifiers can be high or low powered. It can be tubes or SS. It does not matter.

The key to good sound is synergy.

What you solved now is a plain and basic synergy issue. You rejoice because you found an improvement over what you currently experience.
The budget allocated to different gear depends on your approach to building the system. It will vary but a balanced approach is what works most of the time.

 

[Spidey]

Guys, there is NO mystery of these speakers.

They are CADENCE speakers.

The ones I heard are Arita bookshelves (non-electrostatic).
The Aritas had such good range : superb treble and deep bass ( i searched for floor-standers/woofers hidden !!) and exceptional clarity.


The larger ones are Avita (floor-standing hybrid elctrostatics)

And the Aritas :

Some reviews :

Cadence Avita FS review

SpeakerAsylum Arita review

 

[Spidey]

We people are so engrossed in Dalis/MS/MA/B&W/etc...
that we forget some good speakers that are there.

I would compare these Cadence to 1lac+/2lac+ speakers but still better them for pure stereo listening.

Dont think they dont fit in a home theater.
People have used all combos of the Cadence speakers (book-shelves and floorstanders) in 5.1 package. One person had put 5 top-of-the line ARCA speakers( each costing ~5lacs) into a HT setup. Imagine that .. that would be freaking experience.

thanks
'

 

[square_wave]

Great choice spidey.

They are very easy to drive and work well with tubes too.

Get a decent tube integrated for around 60k and you are set for many musical evenings !

 

[reignofchaos]

90k for the Arita is bit too much. Granted they sound very nice, but not so long ago, they costed just 35 grand. The only change done since then is that they've changed the internal wiring to Siltech from VDH.

The electrostats are beautiful speakers if you listen to jazz or classical. Not so good if you listen to rock.

 

[Spidey]

The beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
Similarly, the price you r paying for a speaker is realtive.

I had enquired regarding Usher BE-718 while buying speakers, and they retail at 1.10+ lacs.
But many learned members of this forum hate/dislike the sound of these Ushers and compare them with a 30k ordinary speaker.
( some said they won't take Ushers even if given free!)

So it is how u percieve it.

I dont think the Aritas were selling at 30k.. if you could substantiate your claim.

regards

 

[Dr.Bass]

The beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
Similarly, the price you r paying for a speaker is realtive.

I had enquired regarding Usher BE-718 while buying speakers, and they retail at 1.10+ lacs.
But many learned members of this forum hate/dislike the sound of these Ushers and compare them with a 30k ordinary speaker.
( some said they won't take Ushers even if given free!)

So it is how u percieve it.

I dont think the Aritas were selling at 30k.. if you could substantiate your claim.

regards

While you are right about perception and value.
Aritas were ACTUALLY sold for 37k (including taxes) about 4 years back. Then there was a price increase to 58k which was there till about 1.5 years back and then suddenly WOAH..100k !!!
The price increase was very irrational considering that they made absolutely no improvement to the design or components of the speaker which I believe should have been done as it has issues with high frequencies. All they did was adding a meter of siltech cable inside which would not cost more than 2k to them. That Vifa tweeter has been criticized multiple times for being not in the same class as the rest of the speaker...too tizzy and unrefined for my taste at least. But nothing was done about it.

This whole thing looks plain unreasonable.

But anyway, if you like the speakers all that much that should be enough to make a choice. As you call it "perception". Go for it if your heart tells you.
I would recommend you try harder and get to the electrostats once for all, you will live with it much longer and enjoy a lot more.

 

[Spidey]

Dr.Bass, i think if what you say is true, this pricing is typical from a company that is growing and more importantly, based in India.

The pricing of products made in India can vary from damn cheap to the very expensive ones like Audire etc..

Why Cadence increased the price of Aritas I cant say.

Anyway, my point of auditioning them was a Electrostat cadence has come for sale in Mumbai so thought a more in depth survey was in place.

While the cost increase - to value increase for the bookshelves may not be that great, what i heard is thay they have substantially upgraded their elctrostatic line with using better materials. And of course, they claim that the electrostats are easy to drive.

They claim that their electrostats can withstand Indian conditions and humidification to a greater level then say, Martin Logan or others ( one ML has showing condition related problems on this forums).
This claim remains to be checked though the long-term use of Cadence is legendary.

I mean probably these speakers can go from one generation of users to next without a hitch !

Time comes , when you should see your costly audio equipment as a LEGACY to hand over to ur next generation;

whats the use of using a 2L+ system if it can't last even ur life time ??

Some brands like Bryston, Krell or even some speakers do in fact go from generation to genration



thanks

 

[stevieboy]

They are very easy to drive and work well with tubes too.

I don't know bout easy to drive. I found them to sound good at only higher volumes. They needed to be driven to higher volumes to sound good to my ears. Perhaps cos of the woven cone... But yes, they did work decently with their own hybrid valve amp of bout 20 watts i think.

Spidey if you like em, go for em. SuhasG on this forum had them before upgrading to one of the electrostats so you can check with him for an owner's perspective.

Regards

 

[square_wave]

I agree with Dr Bass on the irrational pricing of the Aritas. They were great value at around 50k compared with other mainstream loudspeakers available at or marginally higher price points.

At 100k, they are not at all value for money. I thought you were picking them up from the used market.
Stevie, I know some folks who are using them with tubes. Not the SET variety with very less power. Some 25 watts plus tube power can make them sing well.

Spidey, If you do not like Ushers, why dont you look at importing some speakers ?

Take a look at the song tower from Salk sound. It uses some of the best drivers for the price point and people are mighty happy with them. They cost less than 2k$.
Here is a well-documented journey by a guy on the AVS forum and he finally settled for a Song tower RT with a ribbon tweeter. He goes by the name Nuance. The guy is fairly new to the game hence most folks can very well relate to what he goes through. Some of the decisions he may have taken may not be the best according to the most seasoned audiophiles but very valid for most folks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919069

If you want to skip the pages of research, here's the final review.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14575239&postcount=3475

Please remember that you are looking at drivers costing multiple times of anything being discussed here plus crossover design by Dennis Murphy and the best cabinets by Jim salk.

 

[deba]

Good Amplifier accurate amplification without coloration and distortion.