Is anyone a member of team-bhp?? What car to buy?

[goyal.sanchit]

Hello Sumain

Thnx for the valuable suggestions. Though your points are completely valid in most of the cases but the 320d would not have been of much use to us and I would highlight the points in the below post-

Although I respect your decision, but I would still urge you to test drive the 320d. It is FAR superior in performance.

I have actually test driven a 320d only. The dealer here didnt have a demo model for the 320i!! 320d was fine and I dont know how would the actual 320i fare.

Many of us still carry the impression of diesels being noisy / rough etc. But BMW makes some of the best diesels in the world. Very smooth and refined, and very punchy. Just look at the torque and bhp ratings of the 320d. According to Hormazd Sorabjee of Autocar India, there is no real point in looking at the petrol engined 3-series any more. He even feels that the 320d can match upto to the 325i and leaves the 320i far behind.

The diesel engine of 320d has a bhp of 177 and I guess the BHP of 320i is around 145. But engine power was not on our priority list when we decided the car. Thats why we had put BMW over AUDI and MERC. (MERC and AUDI both have more powerful engines than BMW ).


Engine power was not much of a concern becoz ours is mostly city based driving and in a city like Chandigarh you reach your destination in max 15-20 min!!

Our previous car Honda city has run Just 1,40,000 km's in past 10-11 years and another one Opel Corsa has run about just 40,000 km's in past 3-4 years.

My only concern is, when you are trying to sell your 320i, you may not be able to get a very good resale value. In fact, you may find it difficult to sell. The 320d will definitely hold its price and saleability better.

Thats a very valid point infact the salesperson insisted on it time and again when he wanted to sell us the Diesel variant when he was supposedly out of stock for 320i.


But at the outset We are not looking to sell the BMW for atleast 15-17 years. So resale is not a concern.

So consider the small extra amount for the 320d as an investment for the future. Enjoy the performance for now, and consider the fuel economy as an extra lollipop (should be able to give you 14-15 kmph).

the "small amount" was actually 3.5 lakhs!! hyeah:

But whatever you decide, CONGRATS. The Bavarian Motor Works is one wonderful workshop, and makes some terrific machines. Not for nothing are they affectionately referred to as UDMs (the ultimate driving machines).

Thanks a lot. I am indeed waiting eagerly to get my hands on it. :yahoo: :yahoo:

 

[Sumain]

There is no such thing as too much money or too much power. (bhp)

Just joking. Ha Ha :lol:

 

[Sumain]

Well, just to talk a bit more on power...

In the real world, torque matters more than bhp.

The max bhp rating is given at a particular rpm. For most petrol engines it is above 6000 rpm, which is a figure that most of us never achieve in day-to-day driving, given that most of city driving is done between 1000 and 3000 rpm. So, you will probably never see that magical bhp number ever. To put it another way, the bhp number is like a PMPO number for music systems. And most people in this forum know what a fallacy that is!

On the other hand, torque, or turning motion, is what gives your car the shove at normal driving speeds. Now, the max torque for the 320i is 200Nm at 3600 rpm, whereas that for the 320d is 350Nm over a lower and wider range of 1750 to 3000rpm.

On a day to day basis, this is the range in which you will drive. So the 320d will feel about twice as powerful as the 320i. Or, to look at it another way, the 320i may feel about half as powerful as the 320d that you drove.

Further, it is useful to also note the weight of the vehicle. The 320i will be approximately 50% heavier than the your old Honda City. The engine, though, will not be 50% more powerful. So your new BMW may just land up feeling less sprightly than you 10-11 year old Honda City. Now that's not good.

So, while I again say that the decision is yours, if you are planning on keeping the car for 15 years, the extra amount just works out to about Rs. 2000 per month. Maybe you can save that on the fuel!

Once again, whichever UDM you choose, a UDM is a UDM.

Cheers

 

[suri]

Well, just to talk a bit more on power...

In the real world, torque matters more than bhp.

The max bhp rating is given at a particular rpm. For most petrol engines it is above 6000 rpm, which is a figure that most of us never achieve in day-to-day driving, given that most of city driving is done between 1000 and 3000 rpm. So, you will probably never see that magical bhp number ever. To put it another way, the bhp number is like a PMPO number for music systems. And most people in this forum know what a fallacy that is!

On the other hand, torque, or turning motion, is what gives your car the shove at normal driving speeds. Now, the max torque for the 320i is 200Nm at 3600 rpm, whereas that for the 320d is 350Nm over a lower and wider range of 1750 to 3000rpm.

On a day to day basis, this is the range in which you will drive. So the 320d will feel about twice as powerful as the 320i. Or, to look at it another way, the 320i may feel about half as powerful as the 320d that you drove.

Further, it is useful to also note the weight of the vehicle. The 320i will be approximately 50% heavier than the your old Honda City. The engine, though, will not be 50% more powerful. So your new BMW may just land up feeling less sprightly than you 10-11 year old Honda City. Now that's not good.

So, while I again say that the decision is yours, if you are planning on keeping the car for 15 years, the extra amount just works out to about Rs. 2000 per month. Maybe you can save that on the fuel!

Once again, whichever UDM you choose, a UDM is a UDM.

Cheers

hi sumain,

all true, your take about torque, bhp and rpm -

but-

there are a few who live where the roads are winding and open (eg., between cannanore and cochin and between cannanore and goa) - and these people love engines that deliver their max torque and bhp at the top end - AHH!!, the joys of downshifting from 3rd to 2nd at 120 kmph, filtering, and then blasting that third all the way to 168 kmph before the engine cuts out - the fourth is rarely used, and only if wife is talking!

there are only two engines on planet earth that can do this - deliver best performance at engine-limiter rpms - and these are BMW (petrol) and Honda(petrol).

IMO (forgive me) diesels are pedestrian - i have driven the BMW's available here (except the 7 series) - both petrol and diesel- and the petrol versions are far superior to the diesel versions - but i did not like them - they are automatics with paddle shift manuals that do not allow you to downshift from 3rd to 2nd above a certain speed (106kmph in the bmw 325i IIRC).

the best cars for some -are manuals that have a red-line at 7000 rpm and cut nearer 8000 rpm - but that is only me!

edit - if you really want a car like this - only the old honda city VTEC fits the bill - and the old imported petrol BMW (6 cylinder)

 

[rikhav]

Absolutely spot-on !! Suri. 2000-2004 City VTECs were free-revving engines & also the bimmer straight 6-cyls......... Those are some machines!!

Very true about the engine of the OHC Vtec. But it does not have the handling of the even a 15 year old BMW

GTO says in his review of the Fiat Punto
"At 130 kph in my OHC Vtec, I'm on my toes. At 140 kph in the Punto, I'm yawning"

So with power you need a chassis which can handle that power and sadly Hondas are not that good handling cars

 

[suri]

Very true about the engine of the OHC Vtec. But it does not have the handling of the even a 15 year old BMW

GTO says in his review of the Fiat Punto
"At 130 kph in my OHC Vtec, I'm on my toes. At 140 kph in the Punto, I'm yawning"

So with power you need a chassis which can handle that power and sadly Hondas are not that good handling cars

yes rikhav,

at any speed above 130 kmph, the old honda vtec needs total commitment and a need to be in third gear - and yes, the chassis flexes with difficult terrain.

and yes, the honda jazz, with a 1.2 litre engine handles much better than the old honda vtec (very much better) and at 140 kmph, does not arouse too much emotion.

but then, not as much raw feel and feedback as the old honda vtec!

edit - the new 2.4 litre accord is a superb handling car, and it's chassis invites comparison with the super-stiff chassis of the Audi - the honda fit/jazz always had a superb/competent chassis and good handling.

 

[rikhav]

Hi Suri
Very true, The new accords are quiet a leap ahead. Some say the the chassis is 20 percent more stiff then the older accord. So they have improved no doubt

 

[dinyaar]

AHA back to cars!!!!
Goyal I would not buy the 320i but then thats cause I want different things in a car. I drive myself and travel places in my car & I need both BHP & Torque.
While Sumain' s points are all valid I still like a petrol but not the 320i.

Suri I have a 2001 city VTEC and its a blast. Its a beautuful free revving engine & I have taken it to 180KPH on the mumbai/pune expressway & the Gujarat express. U need to be mental to do this on a car like the city as it feels as it will take off. The city that followed was no patch on this car & i dont even like the new city though it seems a popular choice. My other car (civic) feels sluggush compared to my old jewel. Incidently the CIVIC is much better now with about 6000Km on the ODO. The engine feels much better & I junked the oils & jumped to my favourite synthetic as I feel its high time.
Ground clearance is a problem with both these cars but thats not much of a problem as my car is never really a people carrier!!!!

Am awaiting my uncles 740i and waiting for his next trip abroad so I get the car for a month!

Goyal a BMW is a BMW but the 320i is giving u a peek not the 'real deal' IMO.
Rgds

 

[rikhav]

Hi Dinyaar
I don't understand why Honda does not given an option also for synthetic. Even Fiat uses synthetic for Linea and Punto
By the way did Porsche darshan a few weeks back :lol:

 

[santhosh]

there are a few who live where the roads are winding and open (eg., between cannanore and cochin and between cannanore and goa) - and these people love engines that deliver their max torque and bhp at the top end - AHH!!, the joys of downshifting from 3rd to 2nd at 120 kmph, filtering, and then blasting that third all the way to 168 kmph before the engine cuts out - the fourth is rarely used, and only if wife is talking!

there are only two engines on planet earth that can do this - deliver best performance at engine-limiter rpms - and these are BMW (petrol) and Honda(petrol).

Wow, envy you Suri. You live close to these roads and also have the perfect machine - OHC Vtec:clapping:. Just reading this post makes me want to drive on these roads (ofcourse, without the wife).

the best cars for some -are manuals that have a red-line at 7000 rpm and cut nearer 8000 rpm - but that is only me!

Me too, just love cars which can do that and more. I have a modified Esteem with a easy-revving g13b engine. My car can do 9000+ rpm as I have configured the rev-limiter to 9500 rpm using Race Dynamics Stand-alone ECM.

GTO says in his review of the Fiat Punto
"At 130 kph in my OHC Vtec, I'm on my toes. At 140 kph in the Punto, I'm yawning"

The Punto is a well-built car with fantastic high-speed manners. Unfortuntely, we still don't have a successor to the OHC Vtec (VFM, power, mileage, high-resale value).

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Dinyaar
I don't understand why Honda does not given an option also for synthetic. Even Fiat uses synthetic for Linea and Punto
By the way did Porsche darshan a few weeks back :lol:

I did more than just the darshan Rikhav & its a blast. It truly handles like a super sports car but its overpriced as its a CBU.
Actually Honda has a SYNTHETIC VTEC oil that the dealerships sell but its 0W-30 & I prefer something thicker at least for an old engine. My favourite is Mobil 1 0W 40 for all my cars. In our bombay weather and extreme driving conditions I have had best results with this oil.
Rgds

 

[santhosh]

While Sumain' s points are all valid I still like a petrol but not the 320i.

Goyal a BMW is a BMW but the 320i is giving u a peek not the 'real deal' IMO.
Rgds

Sumain and Dinyaar, you are spot on in your views. Best piece of advise one could get.

@Sanchit: Among the 3-series available in India, see if you can still get the 325i or the 325d. The M3 is definitely not for you, from your requirements

Another thing about higher torque, bhp, cc figures is that you will be able to sustain higher speeds with relative ease. To understand this better, let me explain this with my modified esteem as an example. I can do a quick 150 in my Esteem and can sustain this for longer durations. But to take it to its maximum speed of 190 needs some effort and also not more than two passengers including the driver. While, I am struggling at around 160kmph after beating a modified Baleno till 140kmph, even a stock Baleno(same engine design as my Esteem, but 300 cc more and longer stroke length) will just cruise past effortlessly and may start struggling at 185.

Hope this is explains why you would want your "Ultimate Driving Machine" to have enough power on tap.

 

[neo]

@santhol2
Is it easy to install the race dynamics chip as for eg a pete's?
How would you compare the two?
TIA
Cheers

 

[goyal.sanchit]

@ Sumain

I have already Booked the 320i and considering the price and the features along with engine I guess its a very good deal (atleast for me) . But I would like to thank you for the wonderful explanation about Torque becoz untill I read your post I had no idea about what the torque is. So I would take this opportunity to clear 1 more doubt here (though its not relevant in thsi case but maybe helpful while selecting another car ).


Suppose I am comparing a merc, Audi and BMW. They all mention their torque at slightly different RPM's. So how to find out which 1 is best in that case as RPM is not the same??


@ Suri

Your post comes as a huge relief. Thnx

@ dinyaar


Well In the end I guess its all about what we expect from a car. Since you already mentioned that you travel places a high performance car would work best for you but I would like more features which would be useful to me. I have 1-2 friends who like to drive at high speeds but I like to keep it safe. So I may not be able to even achieve max performance at 320i. :lol: :lol:

The another thing to consider here is that at this point of time we are hoping to buy another car after 2 years. Probably a Powerful SUV such as X5 Q5 or something like that in the range of 50 Lakhs. So then that would be used for "PERFORMANCE" incase we have to travel long distance.


@ santhol2

325i or 325d would be a waste of Money IMO.

325i is 32 lakh+ whereas you can get a 5 series diesel for 36 lakhs!! Though the engine is same as that of 320d in 5 series but at the end of day a 5 series is a 5 series!!

 

[dinyaar]

Absolutely Goyal we all have our reasons & opinions. What works for me may or may not for u. In this case we are looking at differently at the same car.

Now u say 325i is a waste of money!!!! For me the 320i is a waste of money and the 325i in spite of the higher price is money well spent!!!! Naturally only if one has the budget for such toys.

Yes I travel quite a bit in my car. Almost every weekend to some place close to bbay (Alibag,Pune etc etc) At the moment its my city thats the one we take as the other cars are newer!

In any case u are buying a car from an iconic german carmaker and the car is going to be a joy to own. If u are interested read up a bit on BMW and trace its history during the world wars.

Good luck
Rgds

 

[reignofchaos]

Hm... interesting thread. Having driven all the 3 series bimmers available in India, I have a feeling that they have ruined the handling to a large extent in the Indian cars by softening the rear end a bit. The 325i was easily the best of the lot but even that felt twitchy at high speeds, the brakes felt on-off and ABS cut in every time I pressed the pedal even slightly. To top it off, inspite of the softened suspension, high speed ride was a bit jarring. The steering though heavy was not super precise - it felt a bit lumpy. Not my cup of tea to be honest.

In comparison, the A4 3.2 FSi which I finally managed to td only recently after a very long wait was brilliant in every respect - the ride was great, the high speed stability was superb and the quattro system inspired complete confidence in the car. I never realized when I hit the electronically limited 250kph. Of course I didn't buy it because being a CBU, its woefully overpriced in India with the on road bangalore price being over 50 compared to around 37 for the bimmer. To top it off, Audi/VW don't have a very good reliability record and things break all the time.

I'm looking to upgrade from my 3 year old Lancer Cedia but nothing really interests me right now. Maybe the 370z might change things. I wonder when I'll be able to test drive that :sad:.

PS: Someone said Accord handles well - I hope he was joking :lol:. Its handling is like a lump of lard. It has two amazing engines in its arsenal but in dynamic capability, even a corolla which frankly feels like a washing machine to drive will pummel it.

 

[Sumain]

@ Sumain
Suppose I am comparing a merc, Audi and BMW. They all mention their torque at slightly different RPM's. So how to find out which 1 is best in that case as RPM is not the same??

Hi Sanchit,

For each engine there is a torque curve. That is to say, if you graph the torque on one axis, and the rpm on the other, you will get a curve which rises at first, then falls. This creates a "peak". This is the peak that car manufacturers quote. For different engines, the peak will occur at different rpms.

the ideal is a "flat" torque curve, which creates a plateau rather than a sharp peak. which basically means that the maximum torque is available over a wider rpm range.

Also, the rpm at which max power is delivered matters since if you usually drive between say 2000 and 3000 rpm much of the time, and the engine torque also peaks at that level, you will enjoy more of the maximum power of the engine. However, if you are like Suri, and take the car to 6000 or more rpm in each gear, then you would like your max torque and bhp to occur higher up, so that you get that "kick"

A relatively flat torque curve occuring at relatively low rpm makes the car more "drivable" in city conditions - such as yours. A more drivable car will more relaxed and able to respond more quickly and easily to driver inputs.

[The opposite characteristic is exhibited by an engine like the original City VTEC, of which I too am the proud owner of a 2002 unit. This car needs to be revved hard in lower gears to wring the best out of the engine. (in carspeak "given the stick"). A few years back, I won a Honda dealer organised racing event in my earlier home town, and yes, I never went above third gear, keeping the engine in the 6000 to 7000 range (screaming!).]

(Keep the city vtec in the below 2500 rpm range and it feels pedestrian.)

I understand that the car will be shared between you and your father, and that you are "safe" drivers. The 320d with an automatic transmission, to my mind, would suit your driving styles better.

Also, if you calculate the savings in fuel cost, they work out to about Rs. 4000 to 5000 per month (on a 2000 km per month running), and considering that you plan to keep the car for about 15 years, the extra cost of ownership spread over that period is just Rs. 2000 per month, it makes economic sense too. I am not even counting the higher resale value the 320d will fetch.

So, here it is again - Buy the 320d!

Cheers

 

[Rem]

Hm... interesting thread. Having driven all the 3 series bimmers available in India, I have a feeling that they have ruined the handling to a large extent in the Indian cars by softening the rear end a bit. The 325i was easily the best of the lot but even that felt twitchy at high speeds, the brakes felt on-off and ABS cut in every time I pressed the pedal even slightly. To top it off, inspite of the softened suspension, high speed ride was a bit jarring. The steering though heavy was not super precise - it felt a bit lumpy. Not my cup of tea to be honest.

In comparison, the A4 3.2 FSi which I finally managed to td only recently after a very long wait was brilliant in every respect - the ride was great, the high speed stability was superb and the quattro system inspired complete confidence in the car. I never realized when I hit the electronically limited 250kph. Of course I didn't buy it because being a CBU, its woefully overpriced in India with the on road bangalore price being over 50 compared to around 37 for the bimmer. To top it off, Audi/VW don't have a very good reliability record and things break all the time.

I'm looking to upgrade from my 3 year old Lancer Cedia but nothing really interests me right now. Maybe the 370z might change things. I wonder when I'll be able to test drive that :sad:.

PS: Someone said Accord handles well - I hope he was joking :lol:. Its handling is like a lump of lard. It has two amazing engines in its arsenal but in dynamic capability, even a corolla which frankly feels like a washing machine to drive will pummel it.

ROC which rd in blr did you hit the 250km/hr limit

Its guys like you who really needs a high performance car, Cedia is a decent drivers car on its own.


I have heard Nissan is coming up with their line up of cars shortly if so then a 350z or 370z wud be perfect for you if its priced properly.

 

[neo]

I completely agree with roc on the audi 3.2 & accords handling. I feel the audi 2.0tfsi to be very good all rounder & recently i test drove the skoda laura 1.8tfsi which IMO is also a great vfm. The Superb v6 could also be a great buy & awaiting a opportunity to test drive one.
Cheers.

 

[goyal.sanchit]

I understand that the car will be shared between you and your father, and that you are "safe" drivers. The 320d with an automatic transmission, to my mind, would suit your driving styles better.

Also, if you calculate the savings in fuel cost, they work out to about Rs. 4000 to 5000 per month (on a 2000 km per month running), and considering that you plan to keep the car for about 15 years, the extra cost of ownership spread over that period is just Rs. 2000 per month, it makes economic sense too. I am not even counting the higher resale value the 320d will fetch.

So, here it is again - Buy the 320d!

Cheers

1.) The 320d would be too costly for our liking. :lol:

2.) The car would run about 1000 km only per month!! so the diesel/petrol affect is neglegible!!

3.) If you divide the cost by 15 years then it is just Rs 2000 per month. But considering the timeframe of Loan i.e. 5 years the amount would shoot up!!


PS: We are not fond of diesel cars. Our all cars till now have been petrol only. Diesel and us is something that just dosnt click!! :lol: :lol: