J Play 5.1 - 2 Box on Win 8 with ULTRA Mode & Hibernate ON

[Thad E Ginathom]

The downside to the ruthless transparency of his system is that it shows that this particular track is rather poorly mastered. I guess this is a negative aspect of having arrived at the highest resolution and transparency

Perhaps, one day, there will be a knob to control this. A poor-recording setting, so that, when we have only one copy of a beloved piece of music, and it is a bad copy, we will be able to listen to it on fine equipment without too much pain.

I will not be surprised if the new Ethernet cable brings positive improvements.

My final word in this, because it is the best comparison I can find after some thought: Alchemy.

 

[bhagwan]

On the use of different cables: Bhagwan's system is highly resolving and transparent. I will not be surprised if the new Ethernet cable brings positive improvements. Just as a Spectra AES/EBU cable was bettered by an Italian number whose name I can't recall, which in turn was bettered by a Belden, then by a Mogami, then finally by a bespoke Bertram silver. And all these cables happily carried 1s and 0s in the frame structure ordained by the European Broadcasting Union.

Yes, we did try several different break out cables;
Mogami was ordered from USA - D-Sub to XLR
We made a few here;
D Sub to XLR i.e. We tried :-
Belden
Reference Labs - Italy
Bertram - Copper - Optima etc.

Finally we settled on the Bertram Proxima Silver & hard wired it to a D-Sub Connector that was used on the DAD DAC AX-24.
So now we have [use] a Bertram Proxima Digital Cable from the RME Card to the DAD DAC - D Sub Connector to D Sub Connector - the XLR's have been done away with. Huge difference in SQ to my ears at least;:clapping:

 

[bhagwan]

Bhagwan's system is highly resolving and transparent. I will not be surprised if the new Ethernet cable brings positive improvements.

Sir,
This will be a 'fresh' thread I will start after the Cables are finished & delivered to me.
This is a message I got from the Cable maker :-

Hi Mazher,
No photos to share at this time, but I will send some. Still under work at this time. I expect to ship on Monday when the cables conclude the conditioning process on the Cooker over the weekend.
Thank you again!
Brad

I think that this thread will start sometime mid July - that is by when the cables will be in my possession & installed.
We will do some parallel listening test & shall report on it.
Will invite a few audiophiles over for their opinion too;
The Cables Should Not make any difference to the sound - Just Like a Firewire Cable - but the Siltech G-7 Firewire Cable for the dCS makes a huge difference...Upsampler to DAC i.e.
So time will tell - what the actual position is - I do not want to speculate until then..

 

[sidvee]

I just wanted to report here my listening impressions last Saturday of Bhagwan's new two-PC setup running JPlay in the hibernate mode.

Long story short: the sound is damned near the level of the 3-box dCS Scarlatti stack.

@jls001, very interesting.
Please see this link if you have not already seen it.
15 USB/SPDIF converters shootout
and a quote from the author rating computer audio plus outboard usb to spdif converters against his reference $33k dcs scarlatti transport. BTW he owned the dcs so it makes his conclusion somewhat more suprising.
"M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply + Evo Clock - 100
dCS Scarlatti CD/SACD transport - 100 (+5 when used with dCS DAC and the Clock Link feature enabled)
Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB 110"
and this author uses Dartzeel amplification into Wilson Sashas which I imagine is very resolving.
So this is twice now I have read where the bastion of dcs is assaulted with equipment that costs a fraction of its price.
Good future for computer based audio is all I can say. BTW I have never heard dcs in my equipment so I cannot comment, and neither can I afford it so at most I can read such articles and posts.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The Cables Should Not make any difference to the sound - Just Like a Firewire Cable - but the Siltech G-7 Firewire Cable for the dCS makes a huge difference...

Your firewire cable is part of the signal path. I might agree that it should not make a difference at the digital level (although bad firewire cables are often the reason for firewire equipment not working) but I am not going to say "Utterly impossible."

There is probably some frustration on both sides of the network cable. Let me put an analogy that attempts to explain mine...

Person A can, and often does, drive a car. They are not a mechanic, but they are experienced at driving, know how the basic things work, and the necessary maintenance required.

Person B cannot drive and has no idea even how to name the components they would see under the bonnet of the car.

Person B says to person A, "Your car would go better if you change to different rubber on your accelerator pedal." Person A says, "Nonsense." Person B says, "How can you tell if you don't try? You have a closed mind. How can you deny what I say without experience?"

How can person A argue with person B (assuming he can be bothered). Person B may very well judge the smoothness and comfort of the car as a passenger, but he has no knowledge of the accelerator pedal technology.

Perhaps it is simply impossible for a rational argument to counter an irrational idea. Irrational does not admit of rational.

It is not quite the same, because many hifi people know a great deal about their systems and even the underlying technology, even though they often fall foul of the marketing people (a cable company I came across only recently asks, why do so many of the audiophile ideas and fads not even exist on the professional side of the audio wall) by and large they (err... we ) do have a clue what they are doing.

So a hifi person, with experience of cables making a difference, even with experience of trying very many different combinations and getting just what they want out of it, encounters a new area of technology, and believes that they can apply the same idea and methods to it. That is the essential fallacy, because we can't. The only similarity between a length of analogue audio cable and a length of ethernet cable is that they can both be roughly called pieces of wire. That's the end (ok, two ends) of it. That is the rational of it. Even the increasing "Cat n" numbers do not indicate increasing quality of signal, but only the speed at which the cable can operate. I wonder, in fact, if one can mess with the cables' composition and still call it "Cat-n?" I don't know that one, its a question for our more network-aware members.

But hey, try the alchemy. Some of those guys might even have fooled themselves that they got gold out of it.

 

[mbhangui]

A non-pc solution for Bhagwan's two pc setup

It is the same idea for reducing jitter (have one pc do just jplay and other pc act as a network server)

SONORE Rendu

 

[bhagwan]

A non-pc solution for Bhagwan's two pc setup
It is the same idea for reducing jitter (have one pc do just jplay and other pc act as a network server)
SONORE Rendu

Sir,

This is what I did all my life; 2 Machines - 1 to store & 1 to play.
How else would I fit 16 TB of music in any machine ??

However, in that case, the J Play was not better than J River.

But, with this new 5.1 Version & the Hardware changes - the playback has taken a 'leap'
That is the only reason I started this thread - to get all computer audio people aware of the potential & try to share the idea / experience.
This is a 'relatively' free upgrade & the sonic difference is astounding....
I want all computer audio people to do this - no matter what their set up is - the advantage to gain is so much I cannot describe it here in words;;

 

[manniraj]

:lol:

I had read this before. Like Thad, I also don't want to jump on anything if there is no scientific explanation. I have read through all the posts and also the jplay controversy. One of the thing to be taken into account, when using PC audio, is the problem of jitter. Now most PCs are not setup with Real-Time OS. When I read about the jplay and about Bhagvan's two PC setup, it has all started making sense. If you can make your audio application work real-time, your jitter should reduce. So I did an experiment on my windows PC and after making the change, I am excited like Bhagwan.

I would urge all of you who are using application like foobar, jriver, mediamonkey to try this.

Increase the priority of your audio application to "High" and report back what you hear.

How to increase the priority. Run the windows task Manager. Under process locate your process and right click to set the priority.

But it is a pain to do this everytime. So follow the url below
Permanently Set and Save Process Priority in Windows Task Manager Using Prio - Tweaking with Vishal

Like Bhagwan, I am excited. For the first time my HTPC is giving better sound than my CD player. Thanks to this heated debate. We need many debates like this to discover something new.

EDIT: I installed Jplay. By setting priority of Foobar to high, I don't find any difference between jplay, foobar and mediamonkey

I followed the link and setting the Foobar2000.exe with high priority improved the quality of sound.
Thanks mbhangui for the link.

 

[harry123456]

Got interested in this thread and having heard so much about JPlay 5.1 and using the 2 machine set up to get the ultimate sound. Many discussions in other forums about USB cables and if different bit perfect software players actually improve the sound.

Came across this article in which the guy did some tests and posts his observations backed with some empirical data. For the full article you can go to this link. Archimago's Musings: June 2013 . Interesting read if you have the patience and inclination to read the full article.

Here is a small excerpt.

Part IV: Conclusion
Based on these measurements, a few observations:

1. 24/48 with Kernel Streaming appears buggy as shown with the 24-bit J-Test and RightMark result. Don't use it (as of version 5.1) if you want accurate sound. However, subjectively it still sounds OK to me since it's still accurate down to 16-bits at least. ASIO works fine. 24/96 is fine. I don't know if other sampling rates with 24-bit data are affected. For some reason I could not get WASAPI 16/44 to work with JPLAY even though it was fine with foobar2000.

2. Technically, JPLAY appears to be bit perfect with 16/44 and likely 24/96 based on my tests (of course we cannot say this for 24/48). Since the program claims to be bit perfect, this is good I guess.

3. I was unable to detect any evidence of sonic difference at 16/44 and 24/96 compared to a standard foobar set-up. RightMark tests look essentially the same. Over the months of testing, I see no evidence still that software changes the jitter severity with CPU load, different software, even different DACs (as I had postulated awhile back in this post). DiffMaker null tests were also unable to detect any significant difference in the "sound" of the analogue output from the TEAC UD-501.

4. Still no evidence that extreme settings like "hibernate mode" which reduces the utility of the computer makes any sonic difference. Of course, it's possible that this could make a difference with some very slow machines like a 1st generation single-core Atom processor with small buffer settings doing Kernel Streaming... But in that case, why not just increase the buffer size with Kernel Streaming (why all the "need" for low buffer settings and obsession over low latency for just playback?!) or just go with an efficient ASIO/WASAPI driver? I'd also recommend a processor upgrade if you're still rocking an old Atom!


Bottom line: With a reasonably standard set-up as described, using a current-generation (2013) asynchronous USB DAC, there appears to be no benefit with the use of JPLAY over any of the standard bit-perfect Windows players tested previously in terms of measured sonic output. Nor could I say that subjectively I heard a difference through the headphones. If anything, one is subjected to potential bugs like the 24/48 issue (I didn't run into any system instability thankfully), and the recommended Kernel Streaming mode utilizes significant CPU resources when buffer size is reduced (which the software recommends doing). I imagine that CPU utilization would be even higher if I could have activated the DirectLink (1-sample buffer) setting.

Finally, there's the fact that this program costs 99. A bit steep ain't it? JRiver costs US$50, Decibel on the Mac around $35, foobar2000 FREE and these all feature graphical user interfaces and playlists at least! Considering my findings, I'm unclear with what DAC or computer system one would find tangible benefits after spending 99 for this program.

As usual, I welcome feedback especially with objective data or controlled test results (any JPLAY software developers care to comment on how the audio engines were "tuned"?). I would also welcome independent testing to see if my findings can be verified on other hardware combinations (especially that 24/48 issue).

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

I got an opportunity to listen to Bhagwan's system today. The last time I had visited him, he had been on Accuphase and J River. Hence while the sound was very good, I was not sure of what was the major contributor to the improvement (J River to J Play or Accuphase to Cadence Canasya).

We later switched between the conventional 1 PC J River as well as the hibernation mode on J Play and without doubt, the sparkle, soundstage depth and width, and details immediately obvious even to a casual listener like me were substantially improved in the latter mode. Vocals were much more natural than they sounded the last time. Attack was much stronger as well.

I however suspect that before everyone climbs on this 2 PC bandwagon, do stop and think about whether your system has the resolution that Bhagwan's system has - his entire chain has unbelievable resolution, and any compromise on any part of the chain will compress the difference between the two modes significantly.

Also, the CC has better bass than the Accuphase Class A, but I would say that 10% more bass would lift the system to its true peak. It sounds lovely as it is, though.

 

[sidvee]

I however suspect that before everyone climbs on this 2 PC bandwagon, do stop and think about whether your system has the resolution

Well said Gerry - therein lies the fact that perhaps confuses listeners as to the merit of computer audio. In my case before I introduced the Ayon Skylla and 3 box m2tech evo converter into my system, I was using the Ayon cd2s as a DAC and the single box m2tech evo converter. While this setup was very good, difference between 16/44 and 24/96 was not readily apparent. So my conclusion at that time was that perhaps 24/96 and 24/192 was being over sold. Since the change, the difference between 16/44 and 24/96 is readily apparent to any listener, so much so that when you switch to the latter the volume level drops by a couple of notches and I have to turn up the level on my Lamm by 2 notches, indicating greater dynamic range on 24/96 recording. Additionally there is greater detail, wider and deeper soundstage and better bass extension on 24/96. So I simply attribute all this new found improvements to the higher resolution of my system, and consequently preach that unless one hears said implementation, one cannot make stock statements about how computer based audio sounds.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Interesting read if you have the patience and inclination to read the full article.

I'm not able to get more than a vague impression from the numbers and graphs, but, otherwise, the article is quite readable. Interesting: thanks. Bookmarked his blog.

 

[arj]

This seems like 2 different threads in one . one set of thoughts on people hearing differences and another set on theoretical views on why there is no difference....and they exist in Parallel with different set of Followers

 

[bhagwan]

I got an opportunity to listen to Bhagwan's system today. The last time I had visited him, he had been on Accuphase and J River. Hence while the sound was very good, I was not sure of what was the major contributor to the improvement (J River to J Play or Accuphase to Cadence Canasya).

We later switched between the conventional 1 PC J River as well as the hibernation mode on J Play and without doubt, the sparkle, soundstage depth and width, and details immediately obvious even to a casual listener like me were substantially improved in the latter mode. Vocals were much more natural than they sounded the last time. Attack was much stronger as well.

I however suspect that before everyone climbs on this 2 PC bandwagon, do stop and think about whether your system has the resolution that Bhagwan's system has - his entire chain has unbelievable resolution, and any compromise on any part of the chain will compress the difference between the two modes significantly.

Also, the CC has better bass than the Accuphase Class A, but I would say that 10% more bass would lift the system to its true peak. It sounds lovely as it is, though.

a]
I would like to thank GTM for his time & visit;
It was nice to meet him.

b]
Yes, we did listen to music for 3 hours - almost.
There were a few changes...
I will enlist them here;
1.
The Cable from RME Card to DAD was changed - Betram Copper to Proxima II [Silver]
2.
Accuphase E-550 was 'moved - out'
3.
The Allnic Pre was brought in.
4.
The I/C in use was Proxima II from Bertram [between DAD & Accuphase]
This was 'kept' but an extra was added - from Allnic to Canasya - Bocchino / Australia - http://www.hifivision.com/audio-vid...o-audio-mayflower-rca-rca-1-8m-installed.html
5.
Cadence Canasya was installed in place of the Accuphase E-550 [Power Amp in place of an Integrated Amplifier]

c]
Some small clarifications on the computer front;

1. I only use 2 computers.

2. I cannot play back with 1 computer.

3. The difference that GTM heard [marked in red] was between J River & J Play. I will try and explain. With ref to my old post - Silver & Black Machine.

Only my Silver Machine can connect to the DAC [DAD i.e.] since the RME Card in present only in the Silver Machine.
Black Machine has all the Music & Playback Software.
I can only control the Black Machine. Silver Machine is 'out of bounds'

So, I play music in 2 ways.

1. Convenience = J River
2. Pure SQ = J Play

In both the cases - 2 machines are used.
I cannot use just 1 machine; That option has long gone.

The Crux of this long post is rather simple.

J Play with 2 Machines sound better to my ears than any other combination I have ever tried in the past 4 years;

Hardware as I have used - with Win 8 & Ultra Mode & Hibernate ON.

Any person is most welcome to visit with a CD Player & we can compare a Disc to a Computer Playback.

 

[Nikhil]

This seems like 2 different threads in one . one set of thoughts on people hearing differences and another set on theoretical views on why there is no difference....and they exist in Parallel with different set of Followers

... and the folks in "parallel" should start another thread and leave this one well alone.

 

[bhagwan]

... and the folks in "parallel" should start another thread and leave this one well alone.

I am 100 % OK with all being here;
This thread branched out from Ayon DAC - when I asked Sid for permission to talk about the software & hardware to play back from a computer into his new Ayon DAC...

I love technical people - they have a lot of knowledge that they can share & novices like me get a lot to pick up & then there are people like me - that cannot understand computers but can listen a bit & therefore we comment on what we hear;

I can accept & live with 'them' [technical guys - actually welcome them] just hope they are OK with 'subjective' guys like me;;;
Believers in Cables [IC's & Speaker Cables] / Power Cords / USB Cables & Cat 7 Cables [only after it is received & installed by me] !

I still say - all people that play the computer audio game - must do the 2 machines & use win 8 with J Play in Ultra Mode with Hibernate On;
It is just too good - makes a night & day difference.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

As a bit of a techie, I can only say thanks for that, and reaffirm that the end result for all of us is musical bliss. We only dig into the technical to, hopefully, reach a point where we can forget it.

Computers, with their infinite possibilities of configuration and customisation, provide us with the opportunity for hours of endless fun (with breaks to enjoy the music). Results may work, or not work; conclusions drawn may be right or wrong, but no experiment is invalid. The only thing is that, within all that, there are purpose-built and designed non-audio technologies that are well understood, wherein lie the possibilites of severe misrepresentation, from which the music lover (or, at least, theri wallet ) can only suffer.

 

[bhagwan]

My Cat 7 Cables - Just arrived - USA
Took 1 month to get here - EMS - was posted on 01.07.2013 & I just received them.
They were made in Florida - Revelation Audio Labs -
Some Pics :-

hyeah:

Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

How they perform - do they perform at all - I will know - soon.
Will connect it this evening....

Shall wite about it in a few days...

 

[bhagwan]

J Play 5.2 Released.

I got my copy.

Will install it this week.

Hope I can configure it 'appropriately'

JPLAY 5.2 released! | JPLAY | Forum | JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows

JPLAY 5.2 has been released!

See here for what's new:
JPLAY 5.2 released! | JPLAY | Forum | JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows

Cheers,

Josef & Marcin

 

[bhagwan]

Good Morning;

I just had J Play 5.2 installed - 2 days back.
Was doing some listening this morning;;

Those guys are 100 % doing some work - J Play i.e.
This is better !

More BODY & More FLESH !

I still need to figure out if it is too much.
But off the BAT it sounds nice.

Great Work.


Super - what was good - has improved - so much more....

:yahoo: