Merlin TSM BME

[Hari Iyer]

Congrats mpw. Just now checked the thread after texting you. Enjoy the music.

 

[mpw]

one striking thing about a sealed speaker is the bass - after having spent some time with the merlins and doing a mental comparo with all earlier speakers i auditioned / owned.. one thing thats missing is the additional zing to the bass ( call it thump )...

one can feel the absence of a port or in otherwords one questions if the ported bass is the true one or is the sealed box one ?

what i was hearing before was bass or port noise ?

if port noise.. then to what extent were they interfering with the other frequencies ?

why are most speaker designs ported ? i can count maybe ATC, merlin TSM and ???? among the sealed designs.

I am really curious to know and would want to hear an ATC standmount for some time.

would the character of the bass change if the merlins are fed on a more powerful and equally refined amp ??

the truth is out there and i wanna know !!

a philosophical twist.... whose truth ??

another one.. does it matter ?

mpw

 

[arj]

It's another tube vs SS kind of debate no right answer. A well designed sealed box is difficult to design, does not go as low as a ported and rolls off much faster but , in my limited experience, the quality of bass is richer.

The bass of the merlin TSMs is very rich and powerful as long as you get the placement right. It does not go much below 40 but is 2 db till 50 hence very linear.

I do remember that the response slope of a sealed box is 24 db. Which can be extended to 6 db with a port ? More knowledgeable FMs can comment.

 

[mpw]

arj,

have now toed in the speaker with the supplied tool.

i suppose one needs to live with this bass for a few days to appreciate the nuances. Not that one is better than the other - that can be another debate - but to appreciate for example a different type of coffee...

I was told to prepare for bad recordings to be exposed but so far its been fine - for sure one can make out the bad CD recording but its not sounding as bad as they said it would be. ( maybe the Naim in between ???.. maybe.. thankfully !! )

In fact over the course of last week 2.5 hrs to 3 hrs listening session are becoming common.

mpw

========================================================

 

[neo]

Why don't get someone's amp with a higher power rating & try?
Cheers

 

[mpw]

neo,

thats on the agenda but i will try with not just any amp and not at the moment.

first on the cards is the cardas spade installation and then the duelund RC network coming up next month.

One step at a time.

BTW, when are you coming over ?

mpw

 

[arj]

neo,

thats on the agenda but i will try with not just any amp and not at the moment.

first on the cards is the cardas spade installation and then the duelund RC network coming up next month.

One step at a time.

BTW, when are you coming over ?

mpw

I would second neos suggestion. if you feel you are missing bass (and the speakers are broken in) you could try a different amp.
I used TSMs in a 12x14 room and there was enough thump..i just needed to augment the sub 40Hz with RELs to make it full range

I would guess the Thump you talk of is usually 45-100 Hz and this speaker is excellent in that range. So distance from the walls, room size and amplifier power all have a role to play..and of course the break-in of the drive. I am not sure if the other upgrades would change that much but whats the harm in trying

 

[mpw]

arj,

never said missing bass.. ( unless you rightly point of sub 40 maybe.. ). But i am not really interesed in deep bass.. my room and flooring etc.. are not conducive for that - at the moment.

i am sorry if i gave that perception.

never said no to amp try - i know thats due sometime - but i wont try any any for the sake of it ..

just want to take it step by step.. and enjoy the ride.

let me tell you - where trial leads.. i think you know the answer.. and i dont want to tread that path now.

let it play some more.. its less than 50 hours on it..

mpw

 

[captrajesh]

@mpw, I don't consider myself to me more knowledgeable than you but nevertheless attempting to answer your queries from my understanding and perspective.

one questions if the ported bass is the true one or is the sealed box one ?

As Arj mentioned, it is as debatable as the tube vs ss amps but the conventional audiophile wisdom says that the sealed box would give more accurate and refined bass vis a vis a ported one albeit at the cost of beginning to roll off at higher hz.

what i was hearing before was bass or port noise ?

AFAIK, port noise sounds like "wooff wooff" and not "thump thump"

why are most speaker designs ported ? i can count maybe ATC, merlin TSM and ???? among the sealed designs.

I'm sure you know the answer already but answering it nevertheless. There could be other considerations as well but mainly it would be for producing lower bass for a given driver size and price point.

would the character of the bass change if the merlins are fed on a more powerful and equally refined amp ??

I'm not sure if the answer would be as straight forward as the question.

I remember an experience a few years ago when I was getting on to the hiend audiophile bandwagon. I had DIY tower speaker boxes designed by Viren to replace the original boxes of Kenwood 3-way monitors. It had 12" Woofer which used to play full range (only mechanical roll off) The first order crossover was only routing music to the mid range and the tweeters. I used to drive them with Denon PMA520 integrated amp which was kind of an entry level amp.

One day, our FM Buswal brought his vintage Nakamichi preamp and Rotel Power amp. Not only were the refinement levels were unbelievable but the familiar midbass hump that I was so used to with the Denon just disappeared. The bass became leaner but meaner clearing up the midrange vastly.

That day I learnt a lesson that amongst other things, 'damping factor' of the amp plays a major role in how an amp sounds.

Hope I've not made you end you up in more confusion.

 

[hydra]

one striking thing about a sealed speaker is the bass - after having spent some time with the merlins and doing a mental comparo with all earlier speakers i auditioned / owned.. one thing thats missing is the additional zing to the bass ( call it thump )...

one can feel the absence of a port or in otherwords one questions if the ported bass is the true one or is the sealed box one ?

...

I don't have too much exposure on sealed vs. ported as far as Home Audio is concerned, but I've had a LOT of exposure to sealed & ported subwoofers when I used to be into car audio: My installer used to regularly do fairly high end installs, and I would get to listen to all of them. My personal preferences have always been overwhelmingly towards subwoofers with sealed boxes.

The quality, speed and texture of bass from sealed boxes (in general) is just something else! They don't typically go as low/deep as the ported ones, but the sealed ones are the ones that can effortlessly make us get up and dance! There are definitely exceptions to this, but the exceptions are usually far more expensive than the sealed options.

I'm sure the same basic principle would apply to sealed/ported speakers too. The only problem with the sealed ones (if I'm not mistaken) is that they will need about double the power a ported enclosure (with identical drivers) would need, to play at the same loudness level. This could be why most designers prefer ported designs.

I'm sure that trying the speakers with a more powerful amp will give you excellent results in terms of bass.

 

[mpw]

thanks hydra and capt..

i plan to get some folks over home for a small listening session and that should be a fun experience.

hydra - i agree about the bass but what i was trying to communicate was that - having been used to ported bass for so long.. its takes a while to get used to this... thats all..

I want to do 2 things ( for kicks.. )

a. hear the merling with a high quality tube amp
b. hear the merlins with a high quality SS amp

and i want to do both the above in my home.

This is a really long shot so i dont know whan this will work out but i am happy with the Naim CD5XS and Nait 5i for the moment. The Naim Nait does drive the Merlins quite well at about 10 o clock which is quite sufficient for me.

Looking forward to the weekend and its only thursday !!

mpw

 

[kapvin]

thanks hydra and capt..

i plan to get some folks over home for a small listening session and that should be a fun experience.

hydra - i agree about the bass but what i was trying to communicate was that - having been used to ported bass for so long.. its takes a while to get used to this... thats all..

I want to do 2 things ( for kicks.. )

a. hear the merling with a high quality tube amp
b. hear the merlins with a high quality SS amp

and i want to do both the above in my home.

This is a really long shot so i dont know whan this will work out but i am happy with the Naim CD5XS and Nait 5i for the moment. The Naim Nait does drive the Merlins quite well at about 10 o clock which is quite sufficient for me.

Looking forward to the weekend and its only thursday !!

mpw

Hi MPW,

here is 1 rand worth of contribution..

my limited experiments in speaker design tell me you design a speaker bass response for a target room and also for placement in the room. this is because boundary gain impacts bass response (floor placement, wall placement, corner placement). and room gain gives a helping hand too. So you'd best ask the designer which is the ideal room for your speaker and work from there on (if that's an option) - from the looks of your speaker size and the driver it uses a 120sq ft (1000 cu. ft) looks good.

Sealed speaker bass roll off below tuning is more gentle & benign than a bass reflex. therefore it often works vicariously with room gain to give an almost flat response. (again placement is the key). and that is also the reason that many bass reflex speakers are found to be "boomy" - room gain + flat response = excess bass.

Placement makes a big difference to bass response. you may remember your visit to my house, where we hear speakers 18" from the wall and then about 4 ft from the wall. just FYi - that I had cut the bass by -15dB in the 30hz range to keep the response flat while in the near wall position. for your room (as I remember it) - I'd move the left speaker closer to the left wall and the possibly sit a bit further back (you may be sitting in a null) and see how that works

finally, it's all about getting used to it. flat response always sounds a bit lean at first. and the absence of distortion also makes the bass sound leaner. let the sound imprint before contemplating any changes.

cheers

 

[mpw]

Hi MPW,

here is 1 rand worth of contribution..

my limited experiments in speaker design tell me you design a speaker bass response for a target room and also for placement in the room. this is because boundary gain impacts bass response (floor placement, wall placement, corner placement). and room gain gives a helping hand too. So you'd best ask the designer which is the ideal room for your speaker and work from there on (if that's an option) - from the looks of your speaker size and the driver it uses a 120sq ft (1000 cu. ft) looks good.

Sealed speaker bass roll off below tuning is more gentle & benign than a bass reflex. therefore it often works vicariously with room gain to give an almost flat response. (again placement is the key). and that is also the reason that many bass reflex speakers are found to be "boomy" - room gain + flat response = excess bass.

Placement makes a big difference to bass response. you may remember your visit to my house, where we hear speakers 18" from the wall and then about 4 ft from the wall. just FYi - that I had cut the bass by -15dB in the 30hz range to keep the response flat while in the near wall position. for your room (as I remember it) - I'd move the left speaker closer to the left wall and the possibly sit a bit further back (you may be sitting in a null) and see how that works

finally, it's all about getting used to it. flat response always sounds a bit lean at first. and the absence of distortion also makes the bass sound leaner. let the sound imprint before contemplating any changes.

cheers

hmmm.. - rupiah se rand

i think its about getting used to as well..

maybe the way i put it implied i was looking to now play with the amp - thats not the case at all. I only wanted to highlight the bass diference i am hearing and difference gets perceived as deficient unfortunately. :lol:

sorry if it appears that way.

hope things are well with you.

:cheers:

mpw

 

[Hari Iyer]

@mpw, sharing my thoughts about sealed enclosures as already mentioned by FM,

1. Sealed enclosure gives a higher acoustic impedance at low frequency compared to ported or other designs as its completely sealed from back.
2. Sealed enclosure rolls-off a bit earlier than a ported enclosure but the roll-off is gradual at -6dB/octave compared to sharp roll-off of vented enclosure (24dB/Octave).
3.Sealed enclosure gives better transient response and tighter bass compared to vented enclosure.
4. Single impedance peak at resonance is higher by atleast 50% compared to a Advance TL design.
5. For lower bass, sealed enclosure woofer needs to have a lower resonance woofer and a large voice coil with higher self-inductance.
6. Internal damping / stuffing is the key for a sealed enclosure, so is panel resonance and woofer self damping due to high pressure inside the cabinet.
7. Speaker placement, listening position is very critical for a sealed enclosure as you will require to use the room to your advantage for lifting the low frequencies. Try with using 2 feet distance from side and rear walls to begin with. Too much distance from rear wall will reduce the bass.

 

[mpw]

thanks but i say once again the bass is different and not deficient.

the facts about sealed enclosure are good information though and i would like to thank fellow FM's for sharing their thoughts and ideas and thanks to kanwar for his PM as well.

I am not in line for a subwoofer as of now but i think the way the bass rolls off - it might be a trifle easier to get a subwoofer in for the lower octaves. But thats for another thread.

Hari the speakers are 6.5 ft apart and about 15 inches from the rear.

This weekend - will play some more with the placement and fine tune it further.

mpw

 

[Nikhil]

mpw,

Take a look at the link given in this discussion from the Harbeth forum.
http://www.hifivision.com/speakers/52257-interesting-thread-hug-how-deep-should-my-speaker-go.html

Some great inputs from Allan Shaw.

Regards.

 

[mpw]

thanks nikhil... that was interesting reading.. but to complete the musical experience you do need the lower octaves.. doesnt matter about how much % of it is there or if its just a beat. Thats my view.

But my choice of speaker may not be dictated by what i hold / view.. hope folks appreciate that .. mainly as the listening environment plays a huge role ( in a way harks back to what Alan Shaw mentions but in a different sense ).

mpw

 

[Nikhil]

thanks nikhil... that was interesting reading.. but to complete the musical experience you do need the lower octaves.. doesnt matter about how much % of it is there or if its just a beat. Thats my view.

But my choice of speaker may not be dictated by what i hold / view.. hope folks appreciate that .. mainly as the listening environment plays a huge role ( in a way harks back to what Alan Shaw mentions but in a different sense ).

mpw

Basically there's not that much out there below 60Hz. If you played the low pass samples AS shared in the Harbeth forum you can take a call on whether it's worth spending your time and effort chasing that. Your room as well as the harmonics in the music will help fill out gaps - it's the way a good speaker works.

 

[mpw]

nikhil,

weather what is there below 60hz is significant enough lies ultimately with the user to take a call. That will depend on the music that the user likes to listen to.

My point is this - even thought he user like me ( or anyone else for that matter ) would like to have the speakers reproduce all that is there is in the recording, the limitations of the setup ( either room or funds ) may not allow him / her to do so.

Humbly.. i dont buy AS's argument. It seems a lot more neighbour focused.. :lol:and i think that for true music enjoyment even the bit of whats there below 60hz is important.

as for me - i may decide not to pursue it ( not that i dont want it ) but that my situation does not allow me to have a larger driver which can reproduce lower octaves. This is not in reference to the Merlin TSM.

I choose to remain content with what i get at the moment vis a vis choosing to remain content with "what is available below 60hz is too little anyway " argument. ( on re-reading i find that this need not be a contradiction )

I hope you see my point.

I must thank you for sharing that thread.. it is educative nonetheless..:clapping:

what i do propose to do is to fish around for a tool which lets me measure the music in my room to check the limits of LF and HF in my room. This is just for kicks for my own knowledge. I wonder if such a tool is available in the android market.

best regards
mpw

 

[arj]

Basically there's not that much out there below 60Hz. If you played the low pass samples AS shared in the Harbeth forum you can take a call on whether it's worth spending your time and effort chasing that. Your room as well as the harmonics in the music will help fill out gaps - it's the way a good speaker works.

Nikhil, that is not entirely true although it depends on the music as well,
I have measured the same using a sampler direct from my transport and there is a lot of content below 40 in lots of music , in fact in albums like Clapton unplugged there is a lot in the 20-30 range in all songs which only a full ranger or really good sub can reproduce.

Livingston Taylor's grandmas hands sounds like a acapella but it has a 20-25 hz thump of hs leg hitting the wooden floor and that makes the presentation very different

And once you hear those details you will never be able to enjoy the song the same way in a LF limited system