Merlin TSM BME

[arj]

what i do propose to do is to fish around for a tool which lets me measure the music in my room to check the limits of LF and HF in my room. This is just for kicks for my own knowledge. I wonder if such a tool is available in the android market.



best regards

mpw

No need for a tool. Just download standard test tones and play them and see how clearly you hear them. Ideally you should measure the db and plot it.

 

[Nikhil]

nikhil,

weather what is there below 60hz is significant enough lies ultimately with the user to take a call. That will depend on the music that the user likes to listen to.

...

... and your room. As arj said run some test tones and see how your room interacts with the speakers.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I listened to the Harbeth thread bass stuff a few days ago. I listened with headphones, which may be cheating, but I doubt I would have heard much on my desktop speakers.

When I hear the low-passed bass, I think it is significant, but, apart from solo organ notes, we don't really hear those tones by themselves, because they are part of a composite sound. It is also interesting that those wonderful cables in out brain can produce notes for us that we are not actually hearing, eg, we hear higher harmonics of a bass note our system cannot be playing, but our brains fill it in for us.

I'm not arguing, though. I absolutely agree that it is down to the individual to state what their need and pleasure is. If they love to listen in detail to bass-guitar lines or cathedral organs I'd hate to deny them a single low note of that pleasure

 

[Hiten]

Mahesh,
long back I did some experiments on same subject. Mostly there is some contents below 60hz. Today I did them again (Bored of routine work ). I converted audio cd song Dire Straits 'So far away' to mp3. and in sound editing software chopped off music content above 60 hz. I have both the files, but due to copy right can not share. If you or anyone wants I can email to you or anyone interested. (Original 4 mb and chopped off version is around half mb.) *
one can set volume levels at normal listening level listen to original than play chopped mp3 and see if any sound comes. I tested on my PC speakers, there is some music content like drums or something but at very low level. But be sure they are normal listening levels and do not increase volume. If you can't hear them go closer to speakers to findout if it is significant or not. Below are some images
Original Music View image: Original
Filter applied View image: filter
Content below 60hz View image: content below 60hz
Frequency data of original View image: original frequency data
Frequency data below 60 hz View image: belo 60 hz data

My imageshack account is expired so can not guarantee how long above links will last.

* have given links in following post

Regards.

 

[Hiten]

Here is free (no registration required) download if anyone is interested...
Complete song http://www.filedropper.com/complete_1
Truncated contents above 60hz http://www.filedropper.com/contentbelow60hz
just click download this file enter the verification code.
Regards.

 

[hydra]

I also used to be in the group that didn't want a lot of information under 60Hz. But that was before I experienced how much difference that information made to the overall ambience and enjoyment of music. The sense of space, presence and immersion that the right kind of bass response can bring about is incredible!

mpw, the sealed design of your speakers should make them easy to place in terms of space behind them. They'll probably prefer lesser space behind them in order to give good bass response, right? The trade off in terms of depth of soundstage would probably remain. The speakers would also most likely integrate with a subwoofer much more easily than ported designs!

 

[mpw]

hydra,

bulls eye !!

thats exactly what i believe regarding the importance of the lower bass notes. They are like the stitch which keeps the cloth together.. in a coarse analogy

in fact the speakers are playing quite well. The gap with the real wall is about 15 inches only.

The wonderful bass roll off means that ( in theory ).. a subwoofer would do well with these.. but that some way off now. In fact the same is mentioned on the merlin website..

I quote.. " From 50 Hz up, older VSMs are no match for the Master TSMs sound. If you are considering an older VSM because it has more bass than a TSM, consider the Master TSM and a subwoofer. You may find you are much further ahead "

It will be nice to have a sealed subwoofer though integrating them with the main speakers will be a task ( not impossible though ).

I mention all this on this thread so readers can get a perspective of the Merlin but at the moment i have no desire to experiment with a sub... maybe after a year or so.....

mpw

 

[kapvin]

hmmm.. - rupiah se rand

i think its about getting used to as well..

maybe the way i put it implied i was looking to now play with the amp - thats not the case at all. I only wanted to highlight the bass diference i am hearing and difference gets perceived as deficient unfortunately. :lol:

sorry if it appears that way.

hope things are well with you.

:cheers:

mpw

Hi Mahesh,

Had got what you were saying. wrote what i did from a perspective that different is probably better and better almost always intially sounds "less"

I know that this thread has got hijacked into a bass discussion rather than your feedback on your new speakers, and i'll be guilty of just one more transgression.

if you ever have the time and inclination, i'd suggest you try them in a 120-150 sq ft room. I am pretty sure different will then sound "wow"

secondly, for some one as particular about "his sound" as you, a sub or two is going to be a bagful of hurt. whenever you do eventually choose to do it. I would've recommend passive with a high efficiency pro audio type woofer in a smallish sealed box with a bag-end-type filter to bring it in line, but either you'd need to ensure amp stability in 4ohms in the bass region or high pass your bookshelves and lose efficiency.

Active is even worse. the only commercial offering that I believe can match accurately would be rhythmik 12" woofers. Done wrong, you'd lose a lot of what you like about your speakers, while gaining not much.

lastly, if we ever had an "accurate bass" sweepstakes, my vote for first place would be a damped TL, which completely absorbs the backwave. B&w Nautilus and giya G series are commercial examples. Infinite baffle would be next. I haven't heard much of Open baffle to comment. as for the sealed versus vented debate, I believe that a well designed bass reflex with the right woofer can sound as tight and clean as a well designed sealed, with more deep bass, more efficiency and the negative artifacts (group delay) pushed well into the inaudible range.

hijack over.

edit: Hari - bass roll off - sealed is 2nd order (12dB/octave) and bass reflex is 4th order (24dB/octave)

 

[mpw]

kapvin,

i hugely appreciate your feedback as a DIY'er who knows his stuff. I started my "hi-fi" journey with the Philips FA31 from you.

better .. does initially sound less but you get used to it and appreciate it .. just like i am doing now....

its like losing the flab and feeling lighter and fitter..

as i said earlier a subwoofer is not on my mind at all right now and the merlin tsm is very very very satisfactory ( could i add another very ?? ).

:cheers:

mpw

 

[Hari Iyer]

My suggestions will be to avoid sub if possible and exploit room and Placement to your advantage. Integrating, level matching with subs have always been a challenge for music. For HT it seems normal and OK to have them but for music I would rather avoid it if possible.

 

[malvai]

Mpw, why don't you get Kanwar to look into it? Hifiashok had got Kanwar to do his dubs for his all cadence set up. Cadence speakers being part electrostatic are tough to integrate with. But integrate them well he did!!

 

[arj]

From what i hear mpw is pretty happy with his sound so not making any changes .. so enjoy the sound breaking in and play around with your position to walls to the extent you can

For the Future : , malvais suggestion is great for the future..you should be able to get a pair of dual subs designed for your room and with electronic crossovers and that would be the best you can do for the money .

 

[mpw]

From what i hear mpw is pretty happy with his sound so not making any changes .. so enjoy the sound breaking in and play around with your position to walls to the extent you can



For the Future : , malvais suggestion is great for the future..you should be able to get a pair of dual subs designed for your room and with electronic crossovers and that would be the best you can do for the money .

arj,

have done that and now i look forward to the duelund RC network to see what more can we get from this setup.. i am in a happy space right now.. touchwood !!

manav's suggestion is good also and maybe someday i would like to hear this kind of subs and then take a call...but that is for the future.. if and when.. and as of the moment - the naims + merlin tsm are weaving the magic for me.

had a few HFV FM's home today evening and maybe when they get time they may want to share their experience of todays session.

mpw

 

[mpw]

tried this speaker positioning and it works very very well.

here are some pics..

never felt the need for a sub.. it plays tight and plays quite low.

A bit more of tweaking will help but last night we were teleported to the concert.

It was fun

Thanks Prem and Joshua for last night and denom, santy and docd for the day before !

mpw

 

[arj]

tried this speaker positioning and it works very very well.

here are some pics..

Now I like it. you should be getting a great Depth in Soundstage now. these merlins Image like Crazy once set right. try playing Hell Freezes over/Hotel Calif. the depth of the Drums will dispel any remaining doubts on the Bass as well
to some extend the compromise on bass vs soundstage will be altered by the distance to the rear walls so just shoot for your ideal mix

 

[prem]

I heard the set up last night. I liked it very much. It did everything pretty much right. Great evening mpw. Thanks

 

[Santy]

Yes, we had been to mpw's place last Sunday and had a great time listening to his latest acquisition.

I think the speakers were hardly burnt-in but they already started singing beautifully. The Naim+Merlin combination was quite perfect. The speakers could fill his large and open living room with so much ease.. Though not adequately reinforced at the listening position, they have enough of bass so I doubt if a sub would be ever needed. Usually the female vocals get more of my attention, but in this session, I could observe the male vocals were nicely textured and hard a natural warmth in it esp. on vinyls. I still remember the dynamics in the track Anybody out there (Pink Flyod) were so great that it created a creepy atmosphere. Play a well recorded content on these speakers and they would faithfully reproduce it. The CDP and speakers worked together to dig out every bit of detail from them. I feel the speakers are worth every penny spent on them.

Overall a sunny afternoon well spent. Thanks mpw. I think you can now sit back and enjoy some uninterrupted music without worrying about any limitations of the system as there are hardly any. May be the best you can do it to shift it to a smaller room with some minimum acoustics done to bring out more of the system (esp. in bass region).

 

[prem]

Santy, i suggest you hear it in the new setting. The difference is night and day. In the setting you heard, the bass was riding on everything. It was not a break in issue.

 

[ghatgepatil]

@ mpw, great its meeting your requirements now! But, on the hindsight, would it be possible to make the current position its permanent abode? I think, not. The speakers look drawn out by at least 5' in front of the wall. Means, when not listening, you would have to pull them back! Now, that would remain an issue. 3' in front of the wall did not work out? That 'could' have been a 'permanent'. I know, its a tough call if one does not possess a dedicated space.

 

[Santy]

I agree. Its not a practical solution esp. since this is not a dedicated room.
3' away from the wall is probably better managed - without all the shifting and aligning task everytime you sit for music.