Musical (Stereo) Subwoofer Vs HT Subwoofer

[pdhanwada]

I have Rel strata III which is very musical. I am enjoying everybit of it. May not be the best for the HT. They go well with the Paradigm S-4's bookshelves what I have.

I do agree with Suri, That Musical subs are very expensive.

 

[pdhanwada]

Forgot to mentions Please check out Audio people in chennai, They have Rel subs in store.

I remember The very highend one costs 5 lakh.

THanks
Pandu

 

[elangoas]

I am sure i can't get an REL sub's below 25K. Not even there budget model...
My budget is only 25K... Not more than that... I have finalised to audition Sonodyne roarr 2815 ( 2 * 8 inch drivers) & SLF 200 (with Remote) & Def Tech Pro Sub 800.. All these are ~25K.. I will try to find out how they differ when played on a stereo setup & HT Set up.....

 

[square_wave]

Hi Elangos,

Theoretically, it is not practically possible to sell a musical subwoofer at the prices you are talking about. Hence they do not exist !

The cheapest musical branded subwoofer i could see is this one.

http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/products/deephempseries

or this

http://www.vandersteen.com/2w_specifications.pdf

But then again it depends on your subjective definition of musicality ! I know people who have 25k subwoofers attched to 15k bookshelf speakers on their AV receivers and really enjoying it ! Listen to one and if it floats your boat, pick one up.

There are some decent VFM subwoofers from wharfedale, Epos etc.

 

[bergkamp]

I have a REL Starta 2 for music and SVS SB12+ for HT.
Have never been able to get the sub to work properly with my floorstanders in music. Placement of the sub, setting the crossover etc is a big challenge. Just cant get rid of the "boom". Possibly a problem which needs to be cured at the room acoustics level.

So now I use the REL when I need to bang it out loud for some house party. For normal music, my Dynaudios dig deep enough.

 

[venkatcr]

Actually a 'musical sub' is a misnomer.

One must also remember that music is generally recorded with the artists and the instruments very close to each other. Though multiple mikes may be used, in mixing, the editor creates just two channels into which he sends all the data at all frequencies. Unless the separation is done intelligently, physically separating the frequencies could result in microsecond synchronisation issues that a keen ear can pick up.

A two channel music is 2.0 and does not contain any low frequencies that cannot be handled by a pair of good speakers. In such a pair, whether you get 'good' low frequency sound or not depends upon the size of the drivers used and the crossover inside. Some of the best music is supposed to come from very efficient single drivers. Even a ordinary multi driver breaks the concept of music by sending various frequencies to various drivers.

When you use a sub in a 2.0 environment, you connect the amp's output to a sub, and the sub's output to a pair of speakers. The sub essentially filters out certain frequencies, keep them for itself, and sends the rest to the speaker pair. There is nothing in the music or the amp that gives proper instructions to the sub.

Better things to look for in music are soundstage, body, clarity, separation.

Cheers

 

[hifipal4all]

Before you make your final decision check out the Wharfedale SW-150 & SW-250 models.

Cheers,
Ramesh @ Bangalore

 

[entsurgeon]

hey hifipal, m planning sw 150 . any deal? any used stuff?? is 250 better?

 

[suri]

When you use a sub in a 2.0 environment, you connect the amp's output to a sub, and the sub's output to a pair of speakers.

hi venkatcr,

another way of using a "bass-management-module" (hehehe!) with a two channel system is-

to use the preamp out to (active) subwoofer -

routing the signals to the subwoofer and thence to the speakers must be suitable only for (less-demanding) home-theatre applications.

regds
suri

 

[elangoas]

Thanks for your suggestions....

Today i auditioned Sonodyne Roarr 2815 & Sonodyne SLF 200A subwoofers. Of these two, SLF 200A was Outstanding when a stereo source was played on a stereo mode (2.1). I like it very much.. There are 2 settings on the Subwoofer. One is Music mode & Movie mode, and a small LCD display screen which shows the volume display, crossover setting, Mode, phase (0 -180) incremental in steps of 10....& most importantly with the remote...

I liked the Music mode very much when playing the stereo source... The sub was brilliant. Beautiful punch... Soft Bass (Not hard nor boomy).. Juz what is required...I guezz this is what is called as Musical Subwoofer..

I also played a DTS audio CD and used the Movie mode.. Per sonodyne website, they say there is a boost of 4db @70Hz. Didn't understand what it is.. But i had to turn down the volume settings after returning from stereo mode... It was good too... But Stereo setting was very good..

For the Demo, the sales person used Sonodyne FS sonus 2605 V2 with SLF 200A with a crossover setting of 60Hz on the Yamaha 5.1 receiver and played it on the stereo mode.. The maximum volume on the subwoofer was 60.. a volume level of 40 was more than sufficient.. I believe depending on the room size, we may need to increase or decrease the level..

I have auditioned the Polk audio DSW 500 (25K) & Jamo (don't remember the model @ 30K) i would say SLF 200A beats it. if u r looking for a Subwoofer which can do justice to Music & Movies, you need to take a hard look@ Sonodyne SLF 200A (23K @ Chennai)..

I am yet to audition Def Tech Pro Sub 800...Will audition that too next week. But for now i am tilted towards SLF200A.... Will update after the audition.....

 

[arj]

Actually a 'musical sub' is a misnomer.

...
When you use a sub in a 2.0 environment, you connect the amp's output to a sub, and the sub's output to a pair of speakers. The sub essentially filters out certain frequencies, keep them for itself, and sends the rest to the speaker pair. There is nothing in the music or the amp that gives proper instructions to the sub.

Better things to look for in music are soundstage, body, clarity, separation.

Cheers

hi venkat the above connection is actually the worst way of connecting a sub..
you would be surprised at the amount of musical content in the <30 hz range ! eg Claptons Unplugged has consistent music in that range and today i just cannot hear it without a Sub

the primary principle of a sub is to Augment a speaker and not overshadow it and if done right it can be amazing.not sure how your listening session at Audire went last time ?

I have a REL Starta 2 for music and SVS SB12+ for HT.
Have never been able to get the sub to work properly with my floorstanders in music. Placement of the sub, setting the crossover etc is a big challenge. Just cant get rid of the "boom". Possibly a problem which needs to be cured at the room acoustics level.

So now I use the REL when I need to bang it out loud for some house party. For normal music, my Dynaudios dig deep enough.

bergkamp,
could you try one thing with your REL, keep the cutoff at around 20-25 hz, keep the sub in a corner and then try to dial it in..the moment a sub dials in into a room, it is almost magical it couples not only with the speaker but also the room. most folks try out the rel with a high crossover and low gain and that is the wrong way to dial in a REL as the rel is a cross-overless design and its upper curve and the speakers lower curve are supposed to add up together to give an somewhat even response

 

[marsilians]

I have read many posts & threads & heard opinions that both these qualities are different. If so how do we differentiate them ?

They are fairly different requirements so they are different subs.

In order for you to differentiate, its very simple, if a low freq signal tends to linger for a longer time then its a HT sub. Music notes are a plenty and differ very fast in reproduction unlike HT signals. So musical subs need to produce the low end effecdt well but for a very limited time period as otherwise the boominess will crowd over the other signals.

 

[arj]

They are fairly different requirements so they are different subs.

In order for you to differentiate, its very simple, if a low freq signal tends to linger for a longer time then its a HT sub. Music notes are a plenty and differ very fast in reproduction unlike HT signals. So musical subs need to produce the low end effecdt well but for a very limited time period as otherwise the boominess will crowd over the other signals.

More than the requirements this is a cost compromise.
Ideally both need the same thing is capability to go down low and articulate all the different frequencies you are intended to hear at the volume it is recorded in.
unfortunately economics of making a sub at the low price point is what compromises n the quality and you end up with subs which do one note and that too loudly

at sub 1.5 lakhs price point i would agree with venkat that is better to get better quality bass with a bookshelf/floorstander than try to integrate a sub. a good sub would be a minimum of 50K used and

 

[elangoas]

What should be the typical frequency range that a Musical & HT Subwoofer should produce ? Is there a differentiation in that....

 

[arj]

What should be the typical frequency range that a Musical & HT Subwoofer should produce ? Is there a differentiation in that....

not really. they both should be able to go down to sub 20 hz..depends n the content.
One aspect expected more out of an HT sub is SLAM while the exact articulation could be compromised as the recording itself is not very great usually..the opposite is true on a Stereo setup

 

[suri]

What should be the typical frequency range that a Musical & HT Subwoofer should produce ? Is there a differentiation in that....

for a room-air-coupler (aka subwoofer) used in conjunction with a two-channel stereo - the requirements are precise -

1. iron-control over movement of the cone (in and out) - the cone must start and stop on a dime - so, like, think of solid state amplifier (high power and high damping- in excess of 500 watts for 10 inch cone - transmission line - and in excess of 2500 watts for sealed) for the sub-woofer (http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/)

- would be a good starting point. { in other words -ACTIVE SUB-WOOFER}

2. completely dis-regard valve (tube) amplifiers - they are for those "SIGNIFICANT OTHERS" (because the mid-woofer should also be controlled with an iron-hand - you would not want a flappy mid-woofer when you have a "well-behaved" sub-woofer)

3. the sub-woofer should be locatable (placed in the best position - so that it couples optimally with the room air volume and mass).

4. run the subwoofer with line from pre-amp out

EDIT-

for HT any subwoofer will do (no need to choose - everything from Rs. 15,000/- to Rs. 10,00,000/- will do the job well)

 

[murali]

bergkamp,
could you try one thing with your REL, keep the cutoff at around 20-25 hz, keep the sub in a corner and then try to dial it in..the moment a sub dials in into a room, it is almost magical it couples not only with the speaker but also the room. most folks try out the rel with a high crossover and low gain and that is the wrong way to dial in a REL as the rel is a cross-overless design and its upper curve and the speakers lower curve are supposed to add up together to give an somewhat even response

Looks like you have really started to appreciate the effect of the REL! Glad to hear that.

I am sorry to interrupt but a few points mentioned in this thread do not go with my experiences.
First is the use of bookshelfs and subs. If one really wants to get the best of both highs and lows, a pair of floorstanders each with a "musical" sub will be the ultimate (I am not bringing in the cost factors). The mains positioned to get the best mid-range performance, far away from boundaries, and the subs augumenting the bass where the mains let off, nothing beats that set-up. Whatever the crossover design, let us not forget that it is not a brickwall where one driver stops precisely at "x" frequency and the other starts exactly there. There will be overlap, no doubt, and that is where the integration becomes so important.
There is no substitute for connecting the subs from the main amplifier outputs as a sub for music needs the same signature of the signal going to the mains. All it will do is to look at it and reproduce what is necessary when and the impedance of a sub is hundreds of times more than the 4 or 8 ohm of the mains and therefore, will hardly affect the current going to the mains. The sub's amplifier takes care of the rest.
I don't mind repeating it from my earlier posts, Rel, Bag End, Vandersteen and M&K produce some of the best subs for music but a lot of effort is needed to get them set right. A 10" driver is a must as minimum or multiple 8" drivers. However, larger ones like 15" bring in their own problems. I have used the Rels with 150W power for music with great satisfaction and do not think 500W is really needed.
If someone is promoting a HT sub as equally good for music, I usually take it as a joke.
These are not observations related to "high end" manufacturers but even those of "more affordable" speakers and subs like Polk Audio promote similar views on use of subs for music.
A very simple practical illustration. I am sure practically all of us in this forum enjoy Rafi's songs and perhaps one of the most immortal songs, Tere Mere Sapne from The Guide. In my earlier days, I had always wondered (even with good CDs playing the song) why there was always a mismatch when he comes from Tere-Mere to Sapne, some pitch issue as the 'Ne" used to become distorted. His voice is flawless, no doubt, so even such simple things stood out. Once I got the subs (pair) and tuned them properly with my mains after a lot of efforts with various test discs etc, suddenly the same song started sounding much smoother. There is no flaw in his pitch variation. Another example is his piano-song in the movie Barhmachari where each line in the three stanzas are sung in three different pitches and with a good system able to reproduce it, you will suddenly realise whether there ever was (is) another human with that sort of control over the pitch and the silkiness of sound.

Just some views from experience, right or wrong.

thanks and cheers.
murali

 

[marsilians]

More than the requirements this is a cost compromise.
Ideally both need the same thing is capability to go down low and articulate all the different frequencies you are intended to hear at the volume it is recorded in.

My reference was to the requirements for music vs. HT as thats what the poster was looking for. If you observe, HT subs need to create the "virtual" effects of very deep bass frequencies (such as blasts or dyno foot steps or whatever - not that people have heard this first hand and know what to expect). Music subs do not need to sustain the low frequencies that much - if you listen to Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture, the cannon blasts should ideally be accurate in reproduction to the specific frequencies, tight (precise timing) and fast (should not linger for more than a part of a second).

The HT subs are not constrained as much - their timing could be slightly off as the expectation is that their effects need to linger on. This is also the reason it is relatively easier to integrate a sub in an HT environment than audio only setups.

This is the also the reason that HT subs tend to be ported vs. musical that are enclosed.

unfortunately economics of making a sub at the low price point is what compromises n the quality and you end up with subs which do one note and that too loudly

This is generally true but a subjective matter as its not very clear what a average price point should be for a sub since they are mostly sold by speaker companies and with packages. If you look at JL Audio or REL or RBH, then while being good, I think they are very expensive and not a good VFM unless there is a equally good system that demands such a performance. Most times Velodynes, Hsu and Martin Logan subs can do the job very well if setup properly.

at sub 1.5 lakhs price point i would agree with venkat that is better to get better quality bass with a bookshelf/floorstander than try to integrate a sub. a good sub would be a minimum of 50K used

I believe that a sub will benefit any setup with floor standers. What prevents me from going this route at all times is the complexity in properly integrating the subs. This is brutally hard esp. when you throw on limited placement options. As much as subs tend to be "omni directional" their effects do matter dependent on their placement and setup.

 

[arj]

This is generally true but a subjective matter as its not very clear what a average price point should be for a sub since they are mostly sold by speaker companies and with packages. If you look at JL Audio or REL or RBH, then while being good, I think they are very expensive and not a good VFM unless there is a equally good system that demands such a performance. Most times Velodynes, Hsu and Martin Logan subs can do the job very well if setup properly.
.

I thought the Velodynes. Hsu and ML are also pretty expensive? Thought ML is more expensive than the REL ..though have not really heard/heard-of the RBH Subs

 

[marsilians]

I thought the Velodynes. Hsu and ML are also pretty expensive? Thought ML is more expensive than the REL ..though have not really heard/heard-of the RBH Subs

like I said its relative- velodyne DD-10 is lesser than a REL storm even with today's prices. And it performs admirably well. RBH 1010 is a decent sub for music. Though I believe its big brother 1212-SE is currently the offering from the company.