Musical (Stereo) Subwoofer Vs HT Subwoofer

[arj]

This is generally true but a subjective matter as its not very clear what a average price point should be for a sub since they are mostly sold by speaker companies and with packages. If you look at JL Audio or REL or RBH, then while being good, I think they are very expensive and not a good VFM unless there is a equally good system that demands such a performance. Most times Velodynes, Hsu and Martin Logan subs can do the job very well if setup properly.

To me the term VFM is in itself too subjective as it is too relative !. but again one way to think about could be the cost for a Full range speaker vis a vis a Sub + limited range speaker. From what I could find a Sub+ speaker is more cost effective as able to find the best response in smaller rooms due to the adidtional flexibility on sub placement. the flip side is that settipng up a sub must be the single most time consuming aspect of this hobby (Other than cable matching)

For most of us a true full range is almost cost prohibitive ie something wich does the 20-20K range well...and for practical purposes it begins in the USD8K range.

depending on our budgets we have to arrive at the level of compromise we are willing to live with in a system (of course there are lot of other imp compromises like kind of music, quality of recording , room etc).

most of the floorstanders in the Sub 5000 USD category are limited extension and will not go below 30 Hz.... and int that range there are several subs which do that well.

the best VFM i could find are the Omega Deep hemps. go down to 26 hz but they do it well. Shaizada has those and from all I could research in, they are true VFM for a high end system whicn makes up for lack of depth in musicality/control/articulation
another great value is the BK Elec series, I use the Gemini for my HT and found them pretty musical too but dont expect it to go well below 30 Hz very well.
maybe the EPOS and Quad subs are pretty good. but I do not trust any of the regulat5.1 Subs to be able to do justice in audio as they are meant to augment midbass and bass of satellite speakers which means frequescy below 80.

Actually DIY is perhaps the best route to follow for Subs as you do get good plate amps available and a good driver as well..I guess quite a few folks in this forum have made one.

 

[captrajesh]

First is the use of bookshelfs and subs. If one really wants to get the best of both highs and lows, a pair of floorstanders each with a "musical" sub will be the ultimate

The mains positioned to get the best mid-range performance, far away from boundaries, and the subs augumenting the bass where the mains let off, nothing beats that set-up.

I believe that a sub will benefit any setup with floor standers. What prevents me from going this route at all times is the complexity in properly integrating the subs. This is brutally hard esp. when you throw on limited placement options. As much as subs tend to be "omni directional" their effects do matter dependent on their placement and setup.

If equipment producing low frequency is so difficult to setup what about full range Tower speakers which are said to operate from 20 Hz to 20K Hertz.
How would they be placed?

 

[murali]

If equipment producing low frequency is so difficult to setup what about full range Tower speakers which are said to operate from 20 Hz to 20K Hertz.
How would they be placed?

I have yet to come across a tower speaker that correctly produces the entire frequency range from 20 to 20,000 Hz in a single go. Even the best designed floorstanders manage to reach close to 30 Hz or so and that is where the subwoofers come into picture. The most difficult to produce are the bottom two octaves, 20-40 and 40-80. Even the floorstanders that claim to go all the way to 20 Hz struggle below 40 Hz and this is where a good sub (we call it infra-sub) like Rel or Bag End helps in getting that bottom octave. This needs not only a big driver like 10" or 12" but enough amp power too. However, the same sub will struggle to get to the next higher octave, 40-80 Hz, and beyond that anything > 8" driver does not make sense. So it is a matter of equalising in the bass region, a concept introduced by Vandersteen and fully endorsed by knowledgeable people. Vandy subs take it even further by high pass filtering the main amp to relieve it from producing the most difficult sub-bass frequencies and therefore, cleaner mids and highs. (Unfortunately, the 2WQ is not available with 230 volt 50 Hz.) All the hard work is given to the sub driver and amplifier.

Trying to get both mid-range and bass correct using a single pair of tower speakers is tantamount to studying both biology and mathematics together in Class XI/XII and failing to get admission in both medicine and engineering.

Position the towers to get the mid-range right and then play around with the subs for the deepest bass. It can't get better.

cheers.
murali

 

[arj]

If equipment producing low frequency is so difficult to setup what about full range Tower speakers which are said to operate from 20 Hz to 20K Hertz.
How would they be placed?

thats a whole problem, untill your room is "good enough" to accomodate a full ranger. else you will always be playing around with a compromise betwen bass response and midrange as both may have different positioning.

 

[sonosphere]

Hi,
Spot on assessment, arj /Cap Rajesh.

Not many people have luxury to keep the floorstanders (that do 35Hz or lesser) 3 feet away from rear wall. In most medium sized flats upto 1200 sqft, this 3 feet distance will eat up 25% or room width, then you are left with little space for furniture and to move around.

Considering above I believe it's better to buy BS having tight bass response that cuts-off at 50Hz (and hence allow 1 feet clear distance from wall) and then have an optimally placed sub in room that goes lower till 35 Hz. (its easy and economical to find a tight sub cutting off at 35Hz, than a tight sub going down till 20Hz)

Now can anybody suggest the best 35 Hz limit "musical" sub within 25k? (I think even 8" woofers can do 35 Hz and be tighter than 10" ones)
Regds,

thats a whole problem, untill your room is "good enough" to accomodate a full ranger. else you will always be playing around with a compromise betwen bass response and midrange as both may have different positioning.

 

[arj]

I have yet to come across a tower speaker that correctly produces the entire frequency range from 20 to 20,000 Hz in a single go. Even the best designed floorstanders manage to reach close to 30 Hz or so and that is where the subwoofers come into picture. The most difficult to produce are the bottom two octaves, 20-40 and 40-80. Even the floorstanders that claim to go all the way to 20 Hz struggle below 40 Hz and this is where a good sub (we call it infra-sub) like Rel or Bag End helps in getting that bottom octave. This needs not only a big driver like 10" or 12" but enough amp power too. However, the same sub will struggle to get to the next higher octave, 40-80 Hz, and beyond that anything > 8" driver does not make sense. So it is a matter of equalising in the bass region, a concept introduced by Vandersteen and fully endorsed by knowledgeable people. Vandy subs take it even further by high pass filtering the main amp to relieve it from producing the most difficult sub-bass frequencies and therefore, cleaner mids and highs. (Unfortunately, the 2WQ is not available with 230 volt 50 Hz.) All the hard work is given to the sub driver and amplifier.

Trying to get both mid-range and bass correct using a single pair of tower speakers is tantamount to studying both biology and mathematics together in Class XI/XII and failing to get admission in both medicine and engineering.

Position the towers to get the mid-range right and then play around with the subs for the deepest bass. It can't get better.

cheers.
murali

Someone in Mumbai has a revel Ultima Salons run with Gamut. From the test results i could see it can do 20 Hz pretty well.

the analogy to Biology/Maths is really good though !

 

[captrajesh]

I have yet to come across a tower speaker that correctly produces the entire frequency range from 20 to 20,000 Hz in a single go. Even the best designed floorstanders manage to reach close to 30 Hz or so and that is where the subwoofers come into picture.

Hi Murali,

You mean huge behemoths like B&W 801, The Grand Utopia, The flagships of Theil & Vandersteen (To name a few) do not reproduce below 30-40 Hz?

I was interacting with Mr. John Meyer of Newform Research & he confirmed that his speakers go down to 20 Hz.

 

[suri]

Hi Murali,

You mean huge behemoths like B&W 801, The Grand Utopia, The flagships of Theil & Vandersteen (To name a few) do not reproduce below 30-40 Hz?

I was interacting with Mr. John Meyer of Newform Research & he confirmed that his speakers go down to 20 Hz.

hi captrajesh -

at below 80 hz -

reproduction of the recorded frequencies (correctly) calls for special transducers - special custom enclosures - and special rooms in which the performance is held.

here everything becomes hyper-real -

the equipment costs go thru the roof - costly room treatment becomes a must - partnering amplification has to be (costly) solid-state.

and the perceived gains are in inverse proportion!

regds suri

 

[pdhanwada]

Rajesh,

Look at the Performance graphs of the most floor standers, Below 30 Hz, they are already -3b. As you go much lower, it will still fall. Also at the same time, They struggle to produce the bass. What Murali said is right in his earlier post

Math Vs Biology analogy.

In any speaker you see you have a tweeter, Midrange driver(s), Woofer and now a sub woofer. Each have a specific functionality which they are meant to deliver.

Bergkamp,

Even My Paradigm S-4 are -2b at 40Hz. But By adding a REL sub to the system it has transformed by bass department into a new level.

As Arj says Keep the cross over low and High gain. IT is fine for REL. Never had any problems with mixing with my signatures.

Thanks
Pandu

 

[captrajesh]

at below 80 hz -

reproduction of the recorded frequencies (correctly) calls for special transducers - special custom enclosures - and special rooms in which the performance is held.

here everything becomes hyper-real -

the equipment costs go thru the roof - costly room treatment becomes a must - partnering amplification has to be (costly) solid-state.

and the perceived gains are in inverse proportion!

Hmm
Based on a post by an ex-forum member, I had interacted with Mr. Meyer of newform research who also sells them in kit form.

He said that the speakers require 3 feet behind them and said they would work fine.

That was enough for me to think of the consequences and beat a hasty retreat.

 

[murali]

Hi Murali,

You mean huge behemoths like B&W 801, The Grand Utopia, The flagships of Theil & Vandersteen (To name a few) do not reproduce below 30-40 Hz?

I was interacting with Mr. John Meyer of Newform Research & he confirmed that his speakers go down to 20 Hz.

Measurements are one thing and the performance in real life conditions with associated electronics and accessories is a different matter. Leave alone several criticisms waged against Stereophile for their reviews with measurements, but they do matter, no doubt, to judge the design of the speaker. However, in actual use, in typical listening rooms we folks have in our houses, getting those last two octaves correctly is extremely tough, unless you have the dedicated subs to take care of that. Another funny thing is the belief many have that low frequency sound is non-directional which is strictly not true. Yes, below 40 Hz it is right but once you reach the 80-160 Hz octave, you can certainly know where it is coming from. In other words, the so-called sub-bass or infra-bass lies in the 20-40 Hz range primarily and to a lesser extent in the next higher one. Your quest is for the musical subwoofer, right? Believe me, with BS or tower, if you are going to extend the sub to anything more than 80 Hz, please be wary as it is no longer efficient to reproduce the last octave. For me, the ideal combination is the main speaker (BS or tower) just managing to peep into the 40-80 range and the sub extending its hand in that range. Then the main (including the main amplifier) will do its job of catering to the mids and highs and the sub the bottom ones.

Let us not forget that music is built on sound which is fundamental frequency plus the overtones, and unless one gets the fundamental right, well...

Sorry for too much interruptions.
All the best.

murali

 

[arj]

adding on to what Murali is saying. music is composed of the fundamental tone as well as Harmonics and Subharmonics for the same and the tone is accurately represented only if all are got right.

since a 60 Hz fundamental has its sub harmonic at 30 and the 50 Hz at 25..only if you produce those frequencies also, will you get a feel of the original tone as being right. I am a convert for full range from being the no-music-below-50 group and am really enjoying it !

 

[captrajesh]

Look at the Performance graphs of the most floor standers, Below 30 Hz, they are already -3b. As you go much lower, it will still fall. Also at the same time, They struggle to produce the bass.

Hi Pandu,

I get what you are saying. I get the whole picture now.

Rgds


Rajesh

 

[arj]

Captain, just FYI , there was a very good thread in this forum where we discussed this
http://www.hifivision.com/speakers/10124-sub-frowned-upon-music-set-up.html
and this in another forum
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&forum_id=64&thread=216&postID=10#10

 

[pnredkar]

Let us not forget that music is built on sound which is fundamental frequency plus the overtones, and unless one gets the fundamental right, well...

murali

That's an interesting summary of your entire description.

Analyzing it further, this means that the fundamental frequencies (say below 40Hz) will be played by the subwoofer and the overtones (harmonics - above 40Hz) will be played by your main speaker.

How difficult is it to achieve a good synergy between the two? Also what is the best way to divide the original signal into two: one below 40Hz and other above 40Hz so that the summation of these is as faithful to original as possible?

- Prasad.

 

[captrajesh]

Captain, just FYI , there was a very good thread in this forum where we discussed this
http://www.hifivision.com/speakers/10124-sub-frowned-upon-music-set-up.html
and this in another forum
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&forum_id=64&thread=216&postID=10#10

Thank you very much for the link Arjun. BTW I'm a member of the Duetshe forum but the 1st page is gibberish for me (The login page) Don't know how to change the machine generated password. So don't visit it.

 

[arj]

That's an interesting summary of your entire description.

Analyzing it further, this means that the fundamental frequencies (say below 40Hz) will be played by the subwoofer and the overtones (harmonics - above 40Hz) will be played by your main speaker.

How difficult is it to achieve a good synergy between the two? Also what is the best way to divide the original signal into two: one below 40Hz and other above 40Hz so that the summation of these is as faithful to original as possible?

- Prasad.

Prasad, while murali would be able to answer this better, a sub is not a black and white integeration. the dial in for a sub, especially the rels, is complex as the upper end response of the sub (which drops off with the box aacting as the natural crossover) and the lower end of the speaker needs to blen in and narmonise to produce the response.

so at any frequency a part of it is produiced by the sub and the other by the speaker.

it is due to this that integeration below 40-50 hz is prefered as above it there is some tonal characteristic and direction which could cause some Dis-harmony.
at this frequency range it is the tactile influence of bass which gets more and more relevant

 

[murali]

Prasad, while murali would be able to answer this better, a sub is not a black and white integeration. the dial in for a sub, especially the rels, is complex as the upper end response of the sub (which drops off with the box aacting as the natural crossover) and the lower end of the speaker needs to blen in and narmonise to produce the response.

so at any frequency a part of it is produiced by the sub and the other by the speaker.

it is due to this that integeration below 40-50 hz is prefered as above it there is some tonal characteristic and direction which could cause some Dis-harmony.
at this frequency range it is the tactile influence of bass which gets more and more relevant

Getting dragged into this again, sorry.

The best illustration to augument what arj had already explained is to look at motion picture. A sequence of still photos or slides displayed fast gives the illusion of motion. Or, if you put a stack of cards in the spokes of a cycle, at slow speeds, you hear the individual clicking sounds of the cards but faster, it turns into a continuous buzz. The drivers inside a speaker do not just start and stop suddenly and exactly at some frequency but there is always a continuity depending on the crossover designs. The same extends to the main-subwoofer blend, there has to be a continuity or an extension of one into the other and if the match is perfect, then you have it. When you listen to a chorus music, a church song for example, the multitude of voices has a uniform blend (that is what the conductor tries to achieve and any bad actor in that group will be immediately kicked out) and not a mixture of discrete sounds.

To get a step further, this sort of misconception in frequency split and reproduction is also evident in the concept of pitch by many. Pitch is like color, more psychological. We know light waves themselves are not colored and based on the different frequencies of oscillation and impingement on the retina of the eyes, we perceive color.

I think I have bored enough.

cheers.
murali

 

[captrajesh]

Getting dragged into this again, sorry.

I think I have bored enough.

Hi Murali,

I don't know why you stated the above. Please understand that experiences shared by knowledgable people like you makes this forum a treasure trove of audio gyan.

I understand that humility is the hall mark of people with depth.

regards


Rajesh

 

[pnredkar]

Hi arj & murali,

Thanks for your explanations.

Murali: I don't think that your have bored us. On the other hand, your description is very relevant to this thread. The description of which is a good subwoofer will not be complete without understanding how a sub integrates with the main speakers.

As to the topic of (as near to) perfect reproduction of music from your (possibly budget constrained) speaker set: I have lots of thoughts and questions in my mind. I will post it later today.

- Prasad.