Need help deciding between two LED's

[Audiodoc]

I am talking of the 2009 models. At that time HDMI were not as ubiquitous on laptops as today. You can google to confirm from various forums.

 

[adder]

The 0.0cd/m2 as of today cannot be achieved by any plasma nor by any lcd without local dimming.
Your samsung plasma may match the black levels of a VA based lcd,but it certainly won't perform as good a VA based lcd in day time with ambient light hitting the screen.

As far as 1080lines Sony was the first in lcd camp to achieve it ,at that time none of the other plasma makers panasonic,samsung,lg achieved those figures it was only pioneer.

Philips with triple core in 2008 ,really:lol: .Only samsung tvs use a dual core processor but its only to handle the "smart tv applications" in their 2012 tvs.

 

[lake1988]

@longshanks...who told you that dual core processor means good pic quality..some advanced video processor chip developed by marvell use multi core to add some advanced pic quality improvment like judder reduction, deinterlacing, interpolation..such action require multiple cores to process huge no of bits over and over agin multiple times..as far as philips is concerned they can't even produce decent pq with their so called "3" core processor..where sony's video processor chip got all this advanced improvement with single core chip..so why they bother to develop a dual core.

Regarding 1080 line support added already cleared that portion.

As per black level is concerned svpa panel produce the deepest black..I have played LOTR bluray on it in dark room and black area was real black. Almost a year and half back my relative got a sony 26' lcd with tata sky dth sd connection. When I first saw the picture of sd channel I was not impressed..so I googled for optimum pic settings and change it accordingly and then the pic was looking awesome..don't know if u need to change pic settings in your "second worst" tv.

@audiodoc..I did search various forums...but have u tried powerstrip software to adjust resolution/refresh rate?

 

[longshanks]

My Samsung plasma shows black levels as good as a VA panel? or even wore? i did not know that you knew black levels of my plasma better than i do, specially without actually watching but rather by dreaming and imaging. :lol:

BTW i have plasma's from other manufacturers as well.

A 2009 Samsung plasma has better blacks than any handicapped current LCD unless it had the local dimming non sense.Overall measuring 0.0cd/m2 on a full dark screen is simply useless, it is as good as painting a card board black and calling it the best HDTV. lol

Samsung B850 review - FlatpanelsHD

more Samsung plasma super useless blacks.
Blacks & Whites - Samsung PN51D6500 3D Plasma HDTV Review

Blacks & Whites - Samsung PN59D7000 Plasma 3D HDTV Review

Blacks & Whites - Samsung PN59D8000 Plasma 3D HDTV Review


Sony LCD super amazing mind blowing blacks.


Blacks & Whites - Sony Bravia XBR-46HX929 LED LCD 3D HDTV Review

Blacks & Whites - Sony Bravia KDL-55HX820 LED LCD 3D HDTV Review

Blacks & Whites - Sony Bravia KDL-55EX720 LED LCD 3D HDTV Review

How Television info actually measures blacks.

How We Test TVs - TelevisionInfo.com




Sony was showing 1080 lines while others where sleeping, yeah right! oh wait,I remember Panasonic G1 showing full 1080 lines Samsung LN46A950 displayed 1080 lines, i remember there was a site which did a shoot out for some 75 or 100 TV's at around 2007 or 2008 and posted their findings.

Not just me, it was a guy who worked for Philips who shared this info and he is pretty reliable and respected in a forum, just because a brand does not market them self does not mean they are not sate of the art, Philips before 2010 had the best picture processing of any TV. Their flagship televisions were always accused of over processing, some of the reviews praised them for being so ahead in picture processing and motion technology(the judder reducing tech used by most television these days was present even in Philips CRT's in early 2000 which they called as digital natural motion), Philips was one of the top 5 premier chip designer and manufacturer before 2010 so to make and utilize a powerful chip is pretty feasible for them, but Sony was never a top chip designer or manufacturer.Philips were and even now pioneers in imaging technology and that is why their MRI scans and other medical imaging research still have a huge market.

Buying a Flat Panel Display (LCD/Plasma/LED etc) - Page 182 - Team-BHP

The 0.08 is from a non dimmed zone or with dimming off since in a dimmed zone it cannot be measured and thats from televisioninfo who have the Sony measurements taken at their settings of 400Cd/m2+.

Yes, i agree you know how television info measures black better then television info the same way how you know the black levels on my Samsung plasma better than me just by dreaming.:lol:

To measure the black level of the display, we put up an all-black screen in DisplayMate and measure the luminance at the center of the screen, in candelas per square meter (cd/m2). We measure the black level at several times during the testing of the display, then we report on any variance we see with these multiple measurements and we discuss any dynamic backlight or local dimming that the display uses that affect the black level. However, the main figure that we quote is for the black level at our calibrated settings, with the backlight on maximum for LCDs. Our score is based on how dark the black is: the lower the luminance, the higher the score.

source : How We Test TVs - TelevisionInfo.com





Keep dreaming LCD and Sony lovers.:lol:

 

[lake1988]

Even Realta or Marvell don't use 3 core processor which is used in oppo bluray player so how the hell philips cooked up a three core processor themselves...:lol:..I am gonna laugh for atleast a week.

 

[adder]

So the very thing you have highlighted says that "the main figure that we quote is for the black level at our calibrated settings, with the backlight on maximum for LCDs"

I can quote from HDtvtest.co.uk who have measured 0.05cd/m2 with their sets adjusted to around 100cd/m2 to 200cd/m2 range.
the same for samsung D550 plasma Samsung PS51D550 (D550 PDP) Plasma 3D TV Review
Samsung PS51D8000 (D8000 PDP) 3D Plasma TV Review

I was the one who posted the link of motion resolution in PDF format ,the X450 was the first mentioned in there along with the pioneer who scored 1080lines,while the panasonic if i remember correctly managed 900lines.
Here is that samsung A950/956 reviewed here Samsung LE55A956 Review
And after 20 days the Z450 reviewed here Samsung LE55A956 Review

 

[longshanks]

Exactly, but you assumed this : The 0.08 is from a non dimmed zone or with dimming off since in a dimmed zone it cannot be measured

Ideally setting the back lighting to max while displaying a black image should not effect the black levels, the same way setting the cell light to max should not effect the blacks on a plasma.If we don't get decent blacks when a black image is displayed in an LCD while the back light is set to max then i don't see any advantage in local dimming.


regarding the Samsung LN-46A950

http://hdguru.com/will-you-see-all-...008-model-test-results-hd-guru-exclusive/287/


http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/2008-resolution-tests-125-hdtvs.pdf



BTW 0.05cd/m2 is much better than 0.08 cd/m2 AFAIK.

Even Realta or Marvell don't use 3 core processor which is used in oppo bluray player so how the hell philips cooked up a three core processor themselves...:lol:..I am gonna laugh for atleast a week.

This actually helps me to understand your level of thinking, thanks.

 

[adder]

Exactly, but you assumed this : The 0.08 is from a non dimmed zone or with dimming off since in a dimmed zone it cannot be measured

Ideally setting the back lighting to max while displaying a black image should not effect the black levels, the same way setting the cell light to max should not effect the blacks on a plasma.If we don't get decent blacks when a black image is displayed in an LCD while the back light is set to max then i don't see any advantage in local dimming.

It was pretty obvious what i had mentioned,which is televisioninfo measuring done a 400+ cd/m2.So in a non dimmed zone thats the measurement they got with full backlight setting.

So thats the way one measures blacks at full backlight setting :clapping: .

wonder why people in plasma camp complain how bright the lcd are set or call in torch mode.They also say blame plasma sales because of this.


If one reduces the backlight to ideal conditions or for night time viewing the blacks measured by television info will be much darker.

No idea what kind of caliberator televisioninfo has who measure the blacks at full backlight setting none of other pro calibirator and review sites does that.

regarding the Samsung LN-46A950

Will You See All The HDTV Resolution You Expected? 125 2008 Model Test Results- HD GURU Exclusive | HD Guru


http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/2008-resolution-tests-125-hdtvs.pdf

A950 is the NTSC US model A956 is the pal model.
But in that same link i don't see any other plasma maker having achieving 1080lines.


And 0.05 is the ANSI checkboard pattern achieved in one of black checks.
check the same for the samsung plasma.

 

[longshanks]

.
If one reduces the backlight to ideal conditions or for night time viewing the blacks measured by television info will be much darker.

So today i've learnt if back lighting is set high darker colors will appear lighter and lighter colors will be washed out:lol:

I will pass over these golden words to television info and many other reviewers.

 

[lake1988]

I don't know how u understand my level of thinking..also since u understand so much then let me tell u the processor used for mri imaging is a dsp for particular purpose and processor for tv are dsp for multimedia purpose..their architecture, buffer, instruction, word length don't match..so u figured that cause they overprocess image and makes medical imaging device so they must be using powerful processor..video processing is whole different thing altogether..u can instruct a intel processor to handle both digital image processing and video processing but it will be inefficient cause there are many resource in the processor remains unused..so company's develop SoC to handle specific jobs with different requirement..so please first learn about SoC and dsp first then talk like that.

 

[adder]

So today i've learnt if back lighting is set high darker colors will appear lighter and lighter colors will be washed out:lol:

I will pass over these golden words to television info and many other reviewers.

Don't twist my own words.I don't know where you cooked that one.

In layman term a lcd has a color filter typically a RGB layer and TFT layer which blocks or allows the light,when its blocking the light that when you measure the blacks,now without the backlight you won't register any reading ,if you turn on the backlight when its glowing at its lowest around 100cdm/2 to its highest around 500cd/m2 there will naturally be a variation in the blacl level one you change the backlight.

Television info is the only website which tests a full on or off contrast with the backlight setting maxed out.

 

[longshanks]

Don't twist my own words.I don't know where you cooked that one.

In layman term a lcd has a color filter typically a RGB layer and TFT layer which blocks or allows the light,when its blocking the light that when you measure the blacks,now without the backlight you won't register any reading ,if you turn on the backlight when its glowing at its lowest around 100cdm/2 to its highest around 500cd/m2 there will naturally be a variation in the blacl level one you change the backlight.

Television info is the only website which tests a full on or off contrast with the backlight setting maxed out.

Everyone knows how LCD's work(it's there in Wikipedia), don't know why you deviated to how LCD works.

from what you are saying, when back light is set to max on a local dimming LCD, the local dimming system wont adjust itself in favor of the content it displays, it will rather continuously glow and show poor blacks even when a black slide is being run on the screen, so this obviously proves local dimming tech is simply useless in real world usage.

Over all we have to stick to the black levels by setting the back light to the lowest although this black level has no benefits in real life usage of LCD TV's.

You should probably train television info on how to measure contrast and blacks


here is how they measure contrast.

Contrast Ratio


To calculate the contrast that the screen can achieve, we divide the peak white luminance by the deepest black luminance they can produce when showing normal video and not in a standby mode. So, if a display has a deepest black of 0.4 cd/m2, and a peak white of 400 cd/m2, the contrast ratio is 1000:1. Our score here is based on how high the ratio is; the higher the better. Note that our tests differ from the approach that manufacturers use to determine the contrast ratio; they test the peak white with the backlight on full, then the deepest black with it on the lowest attainable setting (often called a dynamic contrast ratio). Our test determines the true contrast ratio with the backlight on full during the test (often called the static full field contrast ratio).

For direct view LCD and Plasma displays the ANSI checkerboard contrast ratio is generally within a few percent of the full field contrast ratio above. Reviewers that find a significant discrepancy between the two are in instead measuring the veiling glare light contamination of their measuring instrument instead of the HDTV. See below.

Tunnel Contrast


The tests above tell us about the performance of the screen showing just pure whites and pure blacks, but not in the more real world situation of mixed white and blacks on screen.

Some displays have problems here: with these areas of high contrast, the whites bleed into the blacks, making them appear brighter than they should and reducng color saturation at the same time. To measure this, we do a test where a variable width outer rectangular frame on the screen is set to peak white, and we then measure the luminance of a small black area at the center of the screen to see how much light bleeds to the center as the frame expands closer to the center.


Some other sites have a much simpler test using a checkerboard pattern (and refer to this as checkerboard contrast), but our test gives much more information on how the increasing amount of white bleeds into the black area.

Other sites also forget one important technical aspect of this test: that having white on the screen can lead to some of the light from the white screen area reaching the measuring instrument and creating an artificially high reading for the black (a problem called veiling glare, which produces very large measurement errors that lead to erroneous conclusions).

We avoid this by using a special black Duvatyne mask to block the white areas of the display; any light that reaches the measuring device has come directly from the center target on the screen; not from the surrounding area on the screen.


The score a display gets is based on how constant the black level remains; a constant black gets a higher score.

How We Test TVs - TelevisionInfo.com

I mean kudos to television info for giving in depth detail on how they actually measure unlike most sites.

 

[shaiju_o_thomas]

So many posts Thread starter wants to decide between 2 LEDs. Can we help him?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[longshanks]

He has decided to buy a Sony LCD i guess, my posts are just to debunk the blind belief in many similar threads like these that if its a sony it has to be god.The sad reality is Sony is struggling and is a sinking ship.

 

[shaiju_o_thomas]

Okay. Hope he has decided on HX850.

Every organization goes through a struggle at some point. Sadly Sony hasn't learnt much. This year is a mixed bag. An able HX850 and a rather clueless HX750. HX925 is not worth the price given the fact that a few dimming zones can't match the pixel by pixel illumination of Plasma.


Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[lake1988]

Everyone knows how LCD's work(it's there in Wikipedia), don't know why you deviated to how LCD works.

Funny u learnt working of lcd panel from wikipedia I learnt it in college course.

 

[lake1988]

Samsung Elec. Tops Global TV Market for Sixth Year in 2011

Market shares of Panasonic and sony are same...so panasonic is also sinking?

 

[adder]

from what you are saying, when back light is set to max on a local dimming LCD, the local dimming system wont adjust itself in favor of the content it displays, it will rather continuously glow and show poor blacks even when a black slide is being run on the screen, so this obviously proves local dimming tech is simply useless in real world usage.

Over all we have to stick to the black levels by setting the back light to the lowest although this black level has no benefits in real life usage of LCD TV's.

A local dimming display will dim and even brighten depending on the content shown,what your point everyone knows that.
If the local dimming is set to OFF then the above won't apply.
No one keeps such a high setting of backlight unless its on showrooms or airports or public display area or if they have windows facing east or west or direct sunlight.

Post the same in avsforums or avforums so that they could LTAF.

But what kind of calibrator puts the backlight to max and then measure.

By that logic plasma should also match the same high brightness of lcd.But they can only dream of such brightness level.

In most shootouts taking place in dark environments the lcds backlights are dimmed to such low levels so that they can match the brightness of the plasma,still the lcd are brighter.

If the brightness is set to such high levels in night time and if there is some amount of picture or content in the video or if the APL increases ,your eyes iris will reduce the light hitting the retina and you want register the deep blacks.

And even here people say that due to the higher brightness of lcds in showroom ,lcds sell more then plasma.
people who set the backlight settings to max like televisioninfo must wear sun glasses to watch the tv in the night.

A lcd has the capability to give you high brightness say in the morning or after noon or room with high ambient light ,but only a fool will put the backlight to max and watch the tv,even if his or her current ambient light dpesn't warrant a max backlight setting.

here is how they measure contrast.
How We Test TVs - TelevisionInfo.com

I mean kudos to television info for giving in depth detail on how they actually measure unlike most sites.

Television info also highlights the poor brightness of plasma,you should read more of that too,how their brightness is limited to start with or varies with increase in APL due to the ABL due to the limitations of their design.

 

[longshanks]

A local dimming display will dim and even brighten depending on the content shown

I know how local dimming works, i was just being sarcastic there.

Then setting the back light to high should not be an issue if local dimming takes care of the LED's depending upon the content displayed.

If you again cook some statement against this then you are contradicting to the statement you made few posts ago.

Its a knows fact plasma's have low brightness but it is real brightness and much higher than any LCD panel with no back lighting help, hence i said plasma is a real display while LCD is simply handicapped and always needs the help of back lighting.

Post the same in avsforums or avforums so that they could LTAF.

lol i've been posting in AVS since the past 6 years.

You should post your thoughts on how one should measure contrast and blacks and prove telivisioninfo.com wrong, AVS might not LTAF


@lake1988 i would rather concentrate on my toothpick than your brilliant replies.

 

[adder]

I know how local dimming works, i was just being sarcastic there.

Then setting the back light to high should not be an issue if local dimming takes care of the LED's depending upon the content displayed.

If you again cook some statement against this then you are contradicting to the statement you made few posts ago.

Its a knows fact plasma's have low brightness but it is real brightness and much higher than any LCD panel with no back lighting help, hence i said plasma is a real display while LCD is simple handicapped and always needs the help of back lighting.

If and only if its a local dimming tv would adjust ,the placement of the probe matters and whether the same zone has some a image or content displayed .

where the measurements done matters,but putting the tv in torch mode is useless.If the measured zone is at full brightness setting then you are going to see a lighter white.If the zone is in a dimmed one or partially dimmed one you will see 0 black level or something close to it.

You still haven't answered as to why one would watch a tv in torch mode at full backlight setting,since in the non dimmed zone the content shown will be very very bright.

You should post your thoughts on how one should measure contrast and blacks and prove telivisioninfo.com wrong, AVS might not LTAF

The best method is ANSI measuring standards.Backlight adjusted in white measurement of around 150 to 200cd/m2 .