Needed : vinyl rips of few seconds from good analog system.

[Hiten]

Dear Comrades,
any one has ripped popular hindi songs from vinyl with good cartridge+turntable+phono preamplifier ? I need to study spectral content of it and compare with audio cd rips.
1) Need only few seconds of popular singers like Kishorda, M. Rafi etc. Basically vocals.
2) Good ripping system will chaff out unwanted things and will help me study with more scrutiny.
3) Need only few seconds of audio, like say 10 to 20 seconds. (In WAV format)
4) Kishoreda being famous it will be easier to compare same song/s. (i.e. from vinyl and audio cd)
5) you can kindly send me list that you have vinyl rips of. I will see if I have same songs and request it.
6) Kindly PM me.
Thanks

 

[tcpip]

I presume you realise that they will not be "the same songs", right? They will be completely remixed and remastered for the two different media.

 

[Hiten]

Yes. vinyl recordings will be from pre cassette/cd era. Early 70s,. I am curious about when they started selling audios cds. if there was a common pattern to modify the original recording. Increasing overall levels and emphasis on vocals and bass region is my unexperienced guess.

 

[Hiten]

A forum gentleman has provided me vinyl rips and I tried it to compare with (England pressed) Audio cd.


Just one minute of Aradhana movie song. I cant rely on my listening as my listening is not good. Vinyl has more bandwidth Which is strange. Also Vinyl has more prominent vocal and upper mid range... Probably 500hz to 4000hz. I think somewhat data is lost in cd format with upper range. May be it is equalized.
I am not experienced or knowledgeable about recordings. However these results are not to my expectations. I have few more songs to compare.
will see and post soon.
Verdict : as of now inconclusive.

 

[souravin]

Hi Hiten,

I can share my experience as I'm a regular listener to vinyl, CDs, digital rips for bolly wood songs. A quick observation.

(a) HMV/ EMI - vinyl is a clear winner as CD mastering has never been upto the mark except a very few like The Burning Train, Shakti, Harjaee, Karz, Namak Halal etc,. I'm taking reference to PMLP CDs also
(b) Polygram/ Music India CDs are very close to vinyl sound quality, still vinyl is ahead. Referring to Polygram/ Music India 1st pressing CDs
(c) CBS records (like Jeeva, Awaaz , Ram Tere Kitne Naam,) vinyl is again a winner, CD sound is not very stable.

 

[Hiten]

Souravda, your insight will be helpful. I hope this efforts may give some insights in to difference between two formats. Both formats have become expensive. However mp3* and audio cd (compilations and all) are available with some efforts. So if anyone wants to listen to cds it may help to use tone controls to salvage whatever natural sound is left in modified digital format. Ofcourse best would be to evaluate each songs in such programs as adobe audition. A time consuming task.

however here is another comparison. Song is Janeman by kishoreda.

Looks like CD format someone has used 'Expander' while making audio cd. Which increases dynamic range. Though both format sounds ok. vinyl sounds is little better. Some professional recording engineer may give guidance how to use equalizer to listen to audio cds so as to sound like vinyl (original recording)
More as i get time.

* in my past experience some mp3 still has some high frequency content and good dynamic range. So if any one has mp3 collection do not discard them. They also may sound good.
Regards.

 

[souravin]

Hi Hiten,

Appreciate your efforts. One observation on mp3 and WAV quality from Saregama website in case someone buying digital rips.. all WAV formats are simply converted from master mp3. That's a waste to buy WAV format.

For listening, even within CDs PMLP series (earlier releases) sound better than CDF or CDNF variants though the gain is lower in PMLP series. A CD transport and good DAC will at least do some justice.

Assuming the latest comparison is from the movie Janeman 1976 even vinyl recording was not good. So may not be a good sample. I will be sending a vinyl rip and CD rip- please share your email ID over DM.

 

[Hiten]

Coincidentally on 7th october I purchased Hindi song 'Kya mausam hai' (movie : Doosra Aadmi singer Kishoreda). You are absolutley correct. MP3 and WAV are same. Dont know why they sell it as different. Looks like they are not answerable to anyone.

I will pm you my email. Need only few seconds (for easy upload/download) of same audio section of vinyl and cd file. (vocal and orchestration) Do mention CDF CDNF or PMLP if possible. Otherwise ok.

As of now I guess when it comes to hindi movie songs and audio cds. All songs have different equalizations and filters applied. finding common base to undo it is a task in itself. If anyone has both format they can be compared and restore it somewhat. But originality is gone forever. But it will give mental satisfaction that it is not heavily modified. I personally find increased volume level and bass boost distorted.

Hope this is not viewed as vinyl vs cd test. Effort is to make digital source somewhat bearable if one wants to go down that path.
regds.

 

[souravin]

If someone wants to try streaming for bolly wood oldies, that would be a waste of money and time be it Qobuz or Apple Music or Tidal. Keeping in mind the astronomical prices for vinyl, that's surely not an amicable path to choose as of now. Rather a good vinyl rip would be better for digital medium. A good source is Atanu Raychaudhury's You Tube channel for rare bolly wood oldies in very good quality. Please note that this is not a promotion but just a citation.

 

[Sean de Silva]

If someone wants to try streaming for bolly wood oldies, that would be a waste of money and time be it Qobuz or Apple Music or Tidal. Keeping in mind the astronomical prices for vinyl, that's surely not an amicable path to choose as of now. Rather a good vinyl rip would be better for digital medium. A good source is Atanu Raychaudhury's You Tube channel for rare bolly wood oldies in very good quality. Please note that this is not a promotion but just a citation.

Thanks for sharing

 

[Bhaskar Jyoti Talapatra]

Souravda, your insight will be helpful. I hope this efforts may give some insights in to difference between two formats. Both formats have become expensive. However mp3* and audio cd (compilations and all) are available with some efforts. So if anyone wants to listen to cds it may help to use tone controls to salvage whatever natural sound is left in modified digital format. Ofcourse best would be to evaluate each songs in such programs as adobe audition. A time consuming task.

however here is another comparison. Song is Janeman by kishoreda.
View attachment 93548
Looks like CD format someone has used 'Expander' while making audio cd. Which increases dynamic range. Though both format sounds ok. vinyl sounds is little better. Some professional recording engineer may give guidance how to use equalizer to listen to audio cds so as to sound like vinyl (original recording)
More as i get time.

* in my past experience some mp3 still has some high frequency content and good dynamic range. So if any one has mp3 collection do not discard them. They also may sound good.
Regards.

Yes , Hiten some mp3 files are fantastic. Try listening to Bappida's Disco Dancer and Dance Dance. Those sound nice even in mp3. The reason may be , if the recording is good then music sounds nice on various formats. However , music files sold by saregama are not up to the mark. It is better to collect vinyl rip or cd rip if one wants better dynamic range. Another matter that I want to share is that I have Talat Mahmood's Urdu Ghazal LP , recently I got a vinyl rip of that same LP. Surprisingly that rip has more body and dynamic range than the LP. It may be that my LP due to its age has lost some dynamic range or it is a stamper issue and the rip comes from the first pressing hence sounds more beautiful. However, appreciate your efforts, please keep on researching.
Regards

 

[Hiten]

The reason may be , if the recording is good then music sounds nice on various formats.

This is good point Bhaskarda.
regds.

 

[morerajendra5678]

Another matter that I want to share is that I have Talat Mahmood's Urdu Ghazal LP , recently I got a vinyl rip of that same LP. Surprisingly that rip has more body and dynamic range than the LP. It may be that my LP due to its age has lost some dynamic range or it is a stamper issue and the rip comes from the first pressing hence sounds more beautiful.

I believe it is all about equipments used in the chain. In case you find the vinyl rip to be better than the original LP, it has to do more with the Phono Pre-amplifier and the DAC that you are using.

 

[morerajendra5678]

If someone wants to try streaming for bolly wood oldies, that would be a waste of money and time be it Qobuz or Apple Music or Tidal.

Both Tidal and Qobuz use different kind of equalization. With very good Dac + Good amplifier + DSP correction, songs from Tidal are no less enjoyable even if the vinyl is 1st copy.
Even there are instances when if the LP is not 1st copy, streaming sounds better than LP.
Similarly the same LP will sound different when higher end Phono Pre-amplifier and amplifier is used keeping the speakers same.
Bottomline is that if you like the sound signature of the system, you will end up listening to the system even when you have only the streaming services.

There is no denying the fact that with the kind of Tidal subscription one can opt today, you can end up using 3 years of paid streaming service with the same amount you have to pay to purchase a single 1st copy LP in India.

 

[souravin]

Both Tidal and Qobuz use different kind of equalization. With very good Dac + Good amplifier + DSP correction, songs from Tidal are no less enjoyable even if the vinyl is 1st copy.
Even there are instances when if the LP is not 1st copy, streaming sounds better than LP.
Similarly the same LP will sound different when higher end Phono Pre-amplifier and amplifier is used keeping the speakers same.
Bottomline is that if you like the sound signature of the system, you will end up listening to the system even when you have only the streaming services.

There is no denying the fact that with the kind of Tidal subscription one can opt today, you can end up using 3 years of paid streaming service with the same amount you have to pay to purchase a single 1st copy LP in India.

Thanks for your inputs. My comment was based keeping in mind the hypothesis of this thread which is to compare the vinyl and CD or digital , please refer my 1st post for the source of recording. If the master source for TIDAL or Qobuz is the poor quality Saregama mp3s (or converted HQ from mp3), a good DAC cannot make a vocal of Lata Mangeshkar to sound like vinyl reproduction. It could be 70% closer.

If there is no other option in the rig except streaming, it will definitely sound good. I have never ruled out of refraining from streaming. I have used Qobuz premium for six months and then left. My assumptions are based out of DACs -Denafrips Aries and Chord Cute EX and decent in comparison with Lyrita, Nelson Pass DIY Pre, Dynaco based Tube Pre, Sansui AU 919, CNC phono stages

 

[Hiten]

Here is comparison from official download of song 'chal kahi door" from Doosra aadmi"



They look and sound same to me. Probably The company is not selling MP3 as WAV but may be they are high resolution mp3. And probably mp3 encoding algorithms also have advanced.; which listeners find good sounding After all algorithms are based on Psychoacoustics. So if you desire to download official songs please go ahead keeping in mind they are manipulated. As bhaskarda has said if recording is good. you will enjoy them.
Regards.

 

[Hiten]

Another Gentleman has give me FLAC and Vinyl Rip of 'Raat kali' song from 'Buddha mil gaya' Movie.

My rookie (I am not recording engineer hee hee) observation is...
for CD I had to increase volume. Though one can see vinyl has high frequency cut above 14K The vinyl rip has more frequency separation. So there is clarity of instrument separation. This is good vinyl rip. I checked content above 14 K in digital cd wav format (converted from flac) There is no music content above 14K. What you see in Digital CD file may be is noise.
Digital Audio CD has low volume levels across the spectrum so I guess no heavy equalization has been done just recorded at particular level. One can not be sure from where digital cd source material was procured. My hearing is not good and both sound more or less similar when level matched apart from the point I mentioned earlier that vinyl sounded like it has more instrument separation. Which one can see in above image. (More yellow means it's volume level is high and in vinyl rip one can see variation between yellow to violet spectrum at music content below ~ 4000 hzs.)
There is one more file to explore and than we will see if any conclusion can be made.
Thanks to the forum members. Highly appreciated.
Regards.

 

[souravin]

Another Gentleman has give me FLAC and Vinyl Rip of 'Raat kali' song from 'Buddha mil gaya' Movie.
View attachment 93584
My rookie (I am not recording engineer hee hee) observation is...
for CD I had to increase volume. Though one can see vinyl has high frequency cut above 14K The vinyl rip has more frequency separation. So there is clarity of instrument separation. This is good vinyl rip. I checked content above 14 K in digital cd wav format (converted from flac) There is no music content above 14K. What you see in Digital CD file may be is noise.
Digital Audio CD has low volume levels across the spectrum so I guess no heavy equalization has been done just recorded at particular level. One can not be sure from where digital cd source material was procured. My hearing is not good and both sound more or less similar when level matched apart from the point I mentioned earlier that vinyl sounded like it has more instrument separation. Which one can see in above image. (More yellow means it's volume level is high and in vinyl rip one can see variation between yellow to violet spectrum at music content below ~ 4000 hzs.)
There is one more file to explore and than we will see if any conclusion can be made.
Thanks to the forum members. Highly appreciated.
Regards.

Thanks Hiten, wonderful effort you are putting in. Kishore Kumar vocal is better in Odeon double ring LP than the CDF CD. this is not any spectrum analysis, just a pure vinyl to CD media comparison and my own experience.

 

[murali_n]

Another Gentleman has give me FLAC and Vinyl Rip of 'Raat kali' song from 'Buddha mil gaya' Movie.
View attachment 93584
My rookie (I am not recording engineer hee hee) observation is...
for CD I had to increase volume. Though one can see vinyl has high frequency cut above 14K The vinyl rip has more frequency separation. So there is clarity of instrument separation. This is good vinyl rip. I checked content above 14 K in digital cd wav format (converted from flac) There is no music content above 14K. What you see in Digital CD file may be is noise.
Digital Audio CD has low volume levels across the spectrum so I guess no heavy equalization has been done just recorded at particular level. One can not be sure from where digital cd source material was procured. My hearing is not good and both sound more or less similar when level matched apart from the point I mentioned earlier that vinyl sounded like it has more instrument separation. Which one can see in above image. (More yellow means it's volume level is high and in vinyl rip one can see variation between yellow to violet spectrum at music content below ~ 4000 hzs.)
There is one more file to explore and than we will see if any conclusion can be made.
Thanks to the forum members. Highly appreciated.
Regards.

I have a limited collection of LPs of the following Hindi films:
Aradhana
Kati Patang
Love story
Ek Duuje ke liye

Pl let me know which tracks you want, so that i can sample them and send you, at what sample rate and format do you want?
I can send wav/FLAC format at max rate of 24bit/192 khz.

 

[sunder]

Ten years ago Saregama released old songs audio cds in series of "Revamped audio Cds". This type of recorded audio cds have some enhanced sound with some effects. Actually , what they did on those type of CDs? Thanks.