Ntech Native 4k projector ( affordable )

[Arjun4]

Ah I see you want to be pedantic. Well in that case "4k" is irrelevant in the consumer realm at this point in time atleast. As the highest quality source you are going to find in the consumer realm is a UHD Blu Ray which is 3840x2160. And to top it off as far as I know the HDMI standard for 4k is 3840x2160. And the Sony may have the "pro" 4096x2160 lcos chip but it's not so relevant in the world of "home" video as source and transmission standards for home video can't use them. Bottom line is native 4k for home video is for all intents and purposes 3840x2160. We could all change and say native UHD rather than native 4k but what exactly would that achieve?

Its relevant when it comes to the pixels and the way the pixels was produced and then the aspect ratio 17:9 than the standard 16:9. It does make difference to picture quality per the reviewers.
HDMI standard for 4K is HDMI 2.0 or higher which is 4096x2160 at 60Hz 18.2Gbps. 4K UHD is common so advertise it as 3840x2160

 

[danielnaveen2003]

Its relevant when it comes to the pixels and the way the pixels was produced and then the aspect ratio 17:9 than the standard 16:9. It does make difference to picture quality per the reviewers.
HDMI standard for 4K is HDMI 2.0 or higher which is 4096x2160 at 60Hz 18.2Gbps. 4K UHD is common so advertise it as 3840x2160

Are you saying there are people out there who reviewed the Sony 4k projector (a consumer projector) with DCI 4k (4096x2160) test material? 4k is always 2 times the vertical and horizontal resolution. For consumer use it will be (1920X2 = 3840) x (1080x2 = 2160), for pro use it will be twice the height and width of DCI 2k (2048x2 = 4096) x (1080x2 = 2160). So consumer 4k is going to be 3840x2160, thats the 4k output consumer sources put out.

And as for HDMI, it remains a consumer standard and while it might have enough bandwidth to handle 4096x2160 there is no need for vendor implementations to support it. For example 2560×1440 is a commonly used resolution for gaming (as it doesnt tax GPU's as much as 4k and looks better than Full HD) and HDMI can fully support the bandwith but you will find many instances where it wont work through HDMI, but will work fine through Display port (but consumer displays aka 4k TV's dont have display port). A another example is all the consumer equipment thats in the signal path (AVRs primarily) can only do consumer 4k so if you try sending a 4096x2160 signal it will just become a black screen in most cases anyway.

The extra 256 lines of resolution that the Sony has (because Sony didn't want to invest money developing a consumer 4k chip) is just going to be black bars on the top and bottom in the consumer world and it wont make a difference. And so I still dont understand why you would want to mix DCI 4k with 4K UHD, unless ofcourse we are talking about setting up a movie theater in which case the Sony 4k consumer line up wont be a great choice.

 

[Arjun4]

Are you saying there are people out there who reviewed the Sony 4k projector (a consumer projector) with DCI 4k (4096x2160) test material? 4k is always 2 times the vertical and horizontal resolution. For consumer use it will be (1920X2 = 3840) x (1080x2 = 2160), for pro use it will be twice the height and width of DCI 2k (2048x2 = 4096) x (1080x2 = 2160). So consumer 4k is going to be 3840x2160, thats the 4k output consumer sources put out.

Yes that's correct. Material with both 4096x2160 & 3840 x 2160 resolution. Why do you think its difficult ? They were feeding the projector from a camcorder.

And as for HDMI, it remains a consumer standard and while it might have enough bandwidth to handle 4096x2160 there is no need for vendor implementations to support it. For example 2560×1440 is a commonly used resolution for gaming (as it doesnt tax GPU's as much as 4k and looks better than Full HD) and HDMI can fully support the bandwith but you will find many instances where it wont work through HDMI, but will work fine through Display port (but consumer displays aka 4k TV's dont have display port). A another example is all the consumer equipment thats in the signal path (AVRs primarily) can only do consumer 4k so if you try sending a 4096x2160 signal it will just become a black screen in most cases anyway.

HDMI is not working with 2560×1440 resolution content ? then it must be a faulty HDMI cable/ you may be the HDMI port on your system may not be capable of resolution above 1080p. I have my fiber HDMI cable working at 50 Feet for 3840 x 2160 60hz content
Going by your logic nobody can use Sony 4K projector along with AVR coz its native resolution is 4096x2160 and the AVR will not pass this resolution to projector ?

Black screen with 4096x2160 signal ? then whats the use of HDMI pass through ?

Finally whats your point here ?

see the below specs sheet for Sony projector see the maximum resolution this projector can support

https://www.sony.com/electronics/projector/vpl-vw285es/specifications

The extra 256 lines of resolution that the Sony has (because Sony didn't want to invest money developing a consumer 4k chip) is just going to be black bars on the top and bottom in the consumer world and it wont make a difference. And so I still dont understand why you would want to mix DCI 4k with 4K UHD, unless of course we are talking about setting up a movie theater in which case the Sony 4k consumer line up wont be a great choice.

IF you think Sony didn't want to invest the money for consumer 4k, the same goes with other manufacturers too - they don't want to invest money for a Native 4K chip.
Its the aspect ratio (17:9) pushing everyone to follow the consumer standard UHD4K - Which is 16:9
I wasn't mixing anything. Just pointing out the Native 4K isn't just a marketing gimmick and both are available (DCI 4K & 4kUHD) in Projectors but not in TV's

 

[asliarun]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/2335690/x/17733852?secret_perk_token=13720bd0


The projector is so affordable. There are a lot of backers.
Bad thing is if you purchase, you ll receive the product only on september
50 % off is still unbeatable

It is based on pixel shifting technology. The one that epson, JVC uses.
Native 4k is only with sony for now, which is super expensive.( relatively much cheaper compared to the 25k dollar cost before )

Any point on why buy/not buy this product?

The main feature of this projectors seems to be the fact that it is a portable projector. It is small, has an inbuilt battery that is supposed to last 7-8 hours, has an inbuilt speaker, projector display can auto-rotate etc.

Are you specifically looking for a portable projector? If not, I feel that you will have to live with some of the trade-offs. A lot of the engineering budget and cost of construction will go into the portability, and not just pure performance.

 

[pjgowtham]

The main feature of this projectors seems to be the fact that it is a portable projector. It is small, has an inbuilt battery that is supposed to last 7-8 hours, has an inbuilt speaker, projector display can auto-rotate etc.

Are you specifically looking for a portable projector? If not, I feel that you will have to live with some of the trade-offs. A lot of the engineering budget and cost of construction will go into the portability, and not just pure performance.

Yeah, i hate the portability too.
But, it was 470 USD before. The branded ones sell for like 1500 USD
This was a blind purchase. But hopefully it will atleast be mediocre.

 

[danielnaveen2003]

What do you think HDMI pass-through means? Its not a passive activity. I cant send a 5k signal to my AVR and expect it to pass - it - through. And yes HDMI can work at 50 feet I didnt say it cant, it cant run odd resolutions unless specifically supported by the manufacturer at the source, passthrough devices and the display.

Yes so the bottom line as you have agreed , there are two standards. Native 4k in the consumer world is always going to point at 4K UHD, and in the pro world it'll be DCI 4k. Just cause Sony decided to use DCI 4k its not the golden standard and there is not need to desire it either as our sources will be 4K UHD.

 

[Arjun4]

What do you think HDMI pass-through means? Its not a passive activity. I cant send a 5k signal to my AVR and expect it to pass - it - through. And yes HDMI can work at 50 feet I didnt say it cant, it cant run odd resolutions unless specifically supported by the manufacturer at the source, passthrough devices and the display.

Yes so the bottom line as you have agreed , there are two standards. Native 4k in the consumer world is always going to point at 4K UHD, and in the pro world it'll be DCI 4k. Just cause Sony decided to use DCI 4k its not the golden standard and there is not need to desire it either as our sources will be 4K UHD.

I’m using oppo 103D which comes with HDMI 1.4 as per the manufacturer it can even pass through 4K signal. Ideally for 4K you need HDMI 2.0 or above (Not for pass through) And what odd resolution you’re talking about?? So the cables doesn’t have reverse compatibility?
I do understand there are two 4K standards and I do have UHD projector too. And I’m well aware of the difference between Native 4K and UHD is mentioned in my ownership thread few months back. I did enough research before buying it and in fact I did check the Sony projector as well. What kind of 4K projector do you use ?

We do have FM’s using Sony 4K projectors too.

It doesn’t matter consumer world or professional Native 4K is 4096x2160 and that’s why for consumers they don’t even dare to use just 4K. Instead they use specifically ‘4K UHD’.

As mentioned in your previous reply, reason for the gaming resolution (2560×1440 ) wasn't working on HDMI in 'some' instances could be coz of the the HDMI port you were using.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

 

[danielnaveen2003]

I’m using oppo 103D which comes with HDMI 1.4 as per the manufacturer it can even pass through 4K signal. Ideally for 4K you need HDMI 2.0 or above (Not for pass through) And what odd resolution you’re talking about?? So the cables doesn’t have reverse compatibility?
I do understand there are two 4K standards and I do have UHD projector too. And I’m well aware of the difference between Native 4K and UHD is mentioned in my ownership thread few months back. I did enough research before buying it and in fact I did check the Sony projector as well. What kind of 4K projector do you use ?

We do have FM’s using Sony 4K projectors too.

It doesn’t matter consumer world or professional Native 4K is 4096x2160 and that’s why for consumers they don’t even dare to use just 4K. Instead they use specifically ‘4K UHD’.

I do not own any 4k projectors I own several 4k monitors. Native DCI 4k is a bit like beta max, will not have much use in the home consumer world after a while. Even if you owned a DCI 4k projector, you cant get a signal to it, for example my Marantz AVR can only do 4k UHD pass through, unless ofcourse you have pro grade hardware in your hometheater eco system, UHD is the standard. With blu rays also being 4k UHD the only way you can get all the pixels filled is by scaling and using a pull down lens, which is going to to worse that pixel to pixel mapping in consumer grade hardware. And the Oppo 103D cannot accept a 4k input (4kUHD or 4k DCI) , the output is scaled to 4k at 24Hz so its not a pass thru. And the 4k on the oppo was earlier than the industry adoption of 4k UHD resolution for all consumer products.

As mentioned in your previous reply, reason for the gaming resolution (2560×1440 ) wasn't working on HDMI in 'some' instances could be coz of the the HDMI port you were using.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

the HDMi port was version 2. But TV's cant take that resolution, computer monitors can but I prefer using display port on my monitors anyway. Just because the bandwidth is there it doesn't mean the device can handle the resolution. I think its fair to say this conversation should be moved to a different topic, rather than hijacking the n-tech projector thread.

 

[RajithKumar]

Its relevant when it comes to the pixels and the way the pixels was produced and then the aspect ratio 17:9 than the standard 16:9. It does make difference to picture quality per the reviewers.
HDMI standard for 4K is HDMI 2.0 or higher which is 4096x2160 at 60Hz 18.2Gbps. 4K UHD is common so advertise it as 3840x2160

Optoma has done decent job in bring down the prices ,but it has certain disadvantages as per reviews.

• Flexibilty /placement issues which is better in competitor products.
• Black levels and shadow details are not good as competitors.
• it doesn’t feature a wide colour gamut

Optoma UHD65 spec highlight from projector review .com

• 2716×1528 pixel DLP chip (with pixel shifting) provides higher resolution than 1080p pixel shifting projectors
• Pixel shifting allows each pixel to fire twice, for 8.3 million pixels meeting the 4K UHD standard (which doesn’t specify how large each pixel can be)

So the difference is UHD 65 pixel size are larger than pixel size which requires for a native 4k.However it is not visible from a normal setaing distance as per reviews .
As always told that we need to take the reveiws with a pinch of salt.

Based on the above if you have dedicated room and the budget is not a problem,then there are many products available better than Optoma UHD65.

 

[Arjun4]

I do not own any 4k projectors I own several 4k monitors. Native DCI 4k is a bit like beta max, will not have much use in the home consumer world after a while. Even if you owned a DCI 4k projector, you cant get a signal to it, for example my Marantz AVR can only do 4k UHD pass through, unless ofcourse you have pro grade hardware in your hometheater eco system, UHD is the standard. With blu rays also being 4k UHD the only way you can get all the pixels filled is by scaling and using a pull down lens, which is going to to worse that pixel to pixel mapping in consumer grade hardware. And the Oppo 103D cannot accept a 4k input (4kUHD or 4k DCI) , the output is scaled to 4k at 24Hz so its not a pass thru. And the 4k on the oppo was earlier than the industry adoption of 4k UHD resolution for all consumer products.

Going by your logic, whomever buying Sony 4K projector with Native 4K resolution cant use 4096x2160 content along with an AVR.

As per Sony, PS4 Pro supports Native 4K

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/ps4-pro/

4K & Native 4K titles available as per below link - Hope this qualifies as DCI 4K content

http://www.ign.com/wikis/playstation-4/PS4_Pro_Game_Upgrades_and_Differences

Also please check the below video both PS Pro & Sony Projector on Native 4K resolution - It looks like McIntosh Receiver

the HDMi port was version 2. But TV's cant take that resolution, computer monitors can but I prefer using display port on my monitors anyway. Just because the bandwidth is there it doesn't mean the device can handle the resolution. I think its fair to say this conversation should be moved to a different topic, rather than hijacking the n-tech projector thread.

Since the FM who started this thread has concerns about the HDMI cable, it may be helpful for him if you can clarify this. Are you using FHD / UHD TV ? If UHD, Please let me know the brand & model number too.


Resolution is same - 2560 x 1440 and HDMI 2.0 supports 30 - 144 hz refresh rate and 2.78 - 14.08Gbps bandwidth.

 

[pjgowtham]

Since the FM who started this thread has concerns about the HDMI cable, it may be helpful for him if you can clarify this. Are you using FHD / UHD TV ? If UHD, Please let me know the brand & model number too.
View attachment 26825

Resolution is same - 2560 x 1440 and HDMI 2.0 supports 30 - 144 hz refresh rate and 2.78 - 14.08Gbps bandwidth.

I came to a conclusion with the HDMI cable fiasco
HDMI 2.1 supports upto 10k, there are 0 devices which support HDMI 2.1 right now, so not an option
HDMI 2.0 50 feet cable supports only 18.0Gbps maximum. 25 and 35 feet cables will work without hiccups.
18.2 Gbps required for 4k@60Hz in 50 feet distance.
Established standards are not standard enough. Running such a long cable will cause the screen to freeze every 20 seconds.
What i am going to do is cut excess cable and solder it (approx 10 feet will get cut).

So i will have a 40 feet hdmi 2.0 cable that will hopefully work at 4k 60hz
Cat7 extender is also an option. But, i want to learn in the process. So i ll do a DIY cable. I can also save more than a few bucks in the process

 

[pjgowtham]

-

 

[danielnaveen2003]

Since the FM who started this thread has concerns about the HDMI cable, it may be helpful for him if you can clarify this. Are you using FHD / UHD TV ? If UHD, Please let me know the brand & model number too.
View attachment 26825

Resolution is same - 2560 x 1440 and HDMI 2.0 supports 30 - 144 hz refresh rate and 2.78 - 14.08Gbps bandwidth.

HDMI 2.0 does not define a new "cable" standard. Any high speed (cat 2) cable will cover all resolutions. HDMI 2.1 detailed standards are not available for public consumption yet so I don't know what that will require.

And the ultra HD LG TV works fine at 1080p and 4k UHD. 2560x 1440 was not a resolution it supported. I'm not sure of the exact model I can check and get back. And also I remember trying a Samsung 4k tv where the resolution worked but will only works at 30hz even though the HDMI standard has enough bandwidth

 

[danielnaveen2003]

I came to a conclusion with the HDMI cable fiasco
HDMI 2.1 supports upto 10k, there are 0 devices which support HDMI 2.1 right now, so not an option
HDMI 2.0 50 feet cable supports only 18.0Gbps maximum. 25 and 35 feet cables will work without hiccups.
18.2 Gbps required for 4k@60Hz in 50 feet distance.
Established standards are not standard enough. Running such a long cable will cause the screen to freeze every 20 seconds.
What i am going to do is cut excess cable and solder it (approx 10 feet will get cut).

So i will have a 40 feet hdmi 2.0 cable that will hopefully work at 4k 60hz
Cat7 extender is also an option. But, i want to learn in the process. So i ll do a DIY cable. I can also save more than a few bucks in the process

I believe there are active repeaters you can use as the distance you intend to cover is pretty large. And the screen freeze happens in certain devices even at 10 meters, it happens when the HDCP handshake is lost. While I understand that you want better aesthetics by running the cable internally, I would suggest that you wait till you actually get your projector or use a 4k tv as stand-in and see if the cable works and if you need repeaters before concealing it.

 

[Arjun4]

HDMI 2.0 does not define a new "cable" standard. Any high speed (cat 2) cable will cover all resolutions. HDMI 2.1 detailed standards are not available for public consumption yet so I don't know what that will require.

So can we use the same old HDMI cable for 4K UHD content ? Cat2 ? you mean to say Cat6 ?

 

[danielnaveen2003]

So can we use the same old HDMI cable for 4K UHD as well ? Cat2 ? you mean to say Cat6 ?

Cat 6 is a network cable standard. HDMI cables come in two types Cat 1 and cat 2. Cat 1 is called a standard HDMI and cat 2 is called high speed HDMI. High speed HDMI is what you need for 4k. Both types can come with Ethernet or without. Cat 1 maxes out at 1080i and I don't think anyone uses them except as bundled cable in a few set top boxes.

 

[Arjun4]

Cat 6 is a network cable standard. HDMI cables come in two types Cat 1 and cat 2. Cat 1 is called a standard HDMI and cat 2 is called high speed HDMI. High speed HDMI is what you need for 4k. Both types can come with Ethernet or without. Cat 1 maxes out at 1080i and I don't think anyone uses them except as bundled cable in a few set top boxes.

Per the HDMI founders they don't call it Cat1 or Cat2

https://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx

So Cat 2 supports 4K content even beyond 6 meters/ 20 feet ?

 

[Arjun4]

I came to a conclusion with the HDMI cable fiasco
HDMI 2.1 supports upto 10k, there are 0 devices which support HDMI 2.1 right now, so not an option
HDMI 2.0 50 feet cable supports only 18.0Gbps maximum. 25 and 35 feet cables will work without hiccups.
18.2 Gbps required for 4k@60Hz in 50 feet distance.
Established standards are not standard enough. Running such a long cable will cause the screen to freeze every 20 seconds.
What i am going to do is cut excess cable and solder it (approx 10 feet will get cut).

So i will have a 40 feet hdmi 2.0 cable that will hopefully work at 4k 60hz
Cat7 extender is also an option. But, i want to learn in the process. So i ll do a DIY cable. I can also save more than a few bucks in the process

18.2Gbps data transfer is required when 4K with HDR. Since your projector specs doesn't read HDR, shouldn't be an issue.

Since most of the UHD content is on streaming services like Netflix and Amazon and if you're planning to use it, then your cable must support HDCP 2.2 as well, in fact every link in your video chain must support HDCP 2.2 for streaming UHD content.

I have tried at least 5 different HDMI cables for connecting from Shield to AVR, finally 2 cables worked. Monoprice & Cable matters

For AVR to projector, I'm using RUIPRO Fiber HDMI

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-11...D=41WxtjWQ%2BBL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005BZG8G4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1

 

[danielnaveen2003]

Per the HDMI founders they don't call it Cat1 or Cat2

https://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx

So Cat 2 supports 4K content even beyond 6 meters/ 20 feet ?

Actually they do call it category 1,2 and now they have 3 (which will be for HDMI 2.1). It hard to get the full whitepaper describing the specs unless you pay 15K USD and become a member of the HDMI forum. But you can check the FAQ section https://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx

Cat 1 and Cat 2 should work up to 10 meters without boosters, and Cat 3 will max out at 3 meters (similar to display port). Now will the actual cable you buy work up to 10 meters? That is though one to answer, that's why HDMI.org came up with the certifications (the page you had linked) to help the consumer make informed choices as there are a number of sub par cables being sold as high speed HDMI

Category 2 is further certified as high speed and premium high speed because most people will not need a cable that adheres to the full cat 2 bandwidth spec. Most home users are going to be using blu rays as the source and the chroma sub sampling spec for blu ray is 4:2:0 which uses far less bandwidth than 4:4:4. To further complicate things if you use a AVR mid stream it can potentially upsample the source to 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 which will increase tranmission bandwidth requirements. So the certifications make it easier to choose the cable you need.

 

[Arjun4]

Category 2 is further certified as high speed and premium high speed because most people will not need a cable that adheres to the full cat 2 bandwidth spec. Most home users are going to be using blu rays as the source and the chroma sub sampling spec for blu ray is 4:2:0 which uses far less bandwidth than 4:4:4. To further complicate things if you use a AVR mid stream it can potentially upsample the source to 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 which will increase tranmission bandwidth requirements. So the certifications make it easier to choose the cable you need.

Q. What is the difference between a “Standard” HDMI cable and a “High-Speed” HDMI cable?
Recently, HDMI Licensing Administrator, Inc. announced that cables would be tested as Standard or High-Speed cables.

• Standard (or “category 1”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 75Mhz or up to 2.25Gbps, which is the equivalent of a 720p/1080i signal.
• High Speed (or “category 2”) HDMI cables have been tested to perform at speeds of 340Mhz or up to 10.2Gbps, which is the highest bandwidth currently available over an HDMI cable and can successfully handle 1080p signals including those at increased color depths and/or increased refresh rates from the Source. High-Speed cables are also able to accommodate higher resolution displays, such as WQXGA cinema monitors (resolution of 2560 x 1600).

Per them 'Cat 2' max resolution able to 'accommodate' is 2560 x 1600 ( Doesn't read successful). Which is neither UHD 4K or Native 4K

Q. How do I run HDMI cables longer than 10 meters?
There are many HDMI Adopters working on HDMI solutions that extend a cable’s effective distance from the typical 10 meter range to much longer lengths. These companies manufacture a variety of solutions that include active cables (active electronics built into cables that boost and extend the cable’s signal), repeaters, amplifiers as well as CAT5/6 and fiber solutions.

I couldn't find anywhere it reads Premium high speed is further classification of Cat 2 other than the naming convention.

https://www.hdmi.org/consumer/finding_right_cable.aspx