Objectivity vs Subjectivity

[prateekatasniya]

No .. i mean there are a lot of aspects involved..
And first of all a speaker isn't manufactured without knowing the measurements of the driver.

 

[Analogous]

I used to listen and give merit to this guy. But with my evolving knowledge about audio in particular (mind you I didn’t say music) I came to understand reviewers like him and how much he sells BS to sell ….or advertise the gadgets he reviews. I still feel much of the debate and confusion is happening with the interchanging concepts of audio(objective) and music(subjective).

I mean precision matters. And measurements goes towards making the production of audio precise. And yes research is still ongoing how we can define the curves and graphs of human hearing and preference in music.

Just suppose two audiophiles wants to compare what they hear…..that they hear same …..how will they do it? How will both substantiate that what they hear is same? Can the subjective descriptions of slam/forward/punch/laid back etc be understood and compared as unique quantified data points? And if they hear any difference then how will they know?

A fellow FM has suggested to listen to many systems, preferably high ends, to have an idea about good sound and educate oneself. This way one may find our what one prefers. But this is an unnecessary process. Audio research are out there showing this common preference. We just need to understand and interpret what all these researches mean. Popular consumer audio products just didn’t become popular.

To me the debate is very clear: (and here I am not trying to insinuate subjectivism is bad or having an agenda against subjectivist) measurements are the fundamental for our hearing. We have well defined auditory spectrum. And there are load of research on the preference curves of this spectrum. Our audio gadgets and technology are precisely being developed and evolved to produce/reproduce what we exactly hear. And this physics is science and objective data.

What I hear as ethereal in music can be studied. Is being studied. Everything is measurable in this universe. It’s a question of time and evolution of technology. In 1901, it would be hard to imagine a 5G smartphone. Copernicus would never have grasp the technology of James Webb space telescope.


So rest assured those of us who feels there are things unmeasurable, our grand children will know. Some researches will happen using MR neuroscience collating with FR and study how our auditory cortex in the temporal lobe works with our frontal lobe of logic/reasoning cortex.

@Enkay78, I fully respect your position on the subject and agree with many of your sentiments expressed here.

I seem to have lost track of what we are arguing about at this point in this thread.

While trying to recall and make sense of the discussions in these 12 pages (yes, 12!), It seems everyone has in different ways mentioned that:
- both objective and subjective approaches are valuable
- sometimes they diverge widely on a piece of audio equipment- we don’t know why always.
- both are being used to various extents while making decisions on purchases
- The science involved in both approaches is constantly evolving
- some prefer to put more faith in one approach than the other (personal choices)
- it is pointless to argue one approach is superior to the other
- It is impossible to change anyone whose mind is set (waste of time)
- we should declare the horse dead and bury it

 

[arj]

No .. i mean there are a lot of aspects involved..
And first of all a speaker isn't manufactured without knowing the measurements of the driver.

Of course and no one , irrespective of the camp might risk a component which has not been made from specced components irrespective of how it is voiced.. drive to capacitor/resistors...lets just leave the cable out

I guess unless we do not have a measure of Music itself ie why does a song by Lata sound better than the same one by say Anuradha poudhwal. ( I think the old T series cassettes used to have them) both are technically competent but the emotional connect that lata had was something else and you get that from a average LP itself which might have all the rollofs.

AP might not be the best example as she is a good singer on her own, but I always felt her music lacked emotional connect.

Its something similar with the components ( technical component specs) and the sound output ie the connect a singer is able to get which is similar to how a speaker has been put together.

I just took an example am sure there are so many more that we know of. the power of music to evoke an emotional response is what is the one of the key elements why one needs to go by the ear.

 

[k-pad]

Of course and no one , irrespective of the camp might risk a component which has not been made from specced components irrespective of how it is voiced.. drive to capacitor/resistors...lets just leave the cable out

I guess unless we do not have a measure of Music itself ie why does a song by Lata sound better than the same one by say Anuradha poudhwal. ( I think the old T series cassettes used to have them) both are technically competent but the emotional connect that lata had was something else and you get that from a average LP itself which might have all the rollofs.

AP might not be the best example as she is a good singer on her own, but I always felt her music lacked emotional connect.

Its something similiar with the components ( technical component specs) and the sound output ie the connect a singer is able to get which is similiar to how a speaker has been put together.

I just took an example am sure there are so many more that we know of. the power of music to evoke an emotional response is what is the one of the key elements why one needs to go by the ear.

Arj, it's kind of an unfair comparison na?
Composers composed music and wanted LM to sing, which am assuming means, they must have at some point thought of her in their head singing their pieces.
AP was merely covering, irrespective of what we ourselves feel.
Can't be a fair comparison, na?

 

[arj]

Arj, it's kind of an unfair comparison na?
Composers composed music and wanted LM to sing, which am assuming means, they must have at some point thought of her in their head singing their pieces.
AP was merely covering, irrespective of what we ourselves feel.
Can't be a fair comparison, na?

I actually felt bad for AP while writing it but then Lata was at a different level and i dont think this should take anything away from AP . She has sung songs by Lata in the past.

 

[Enkay78]

@Enkay78, I fully respect your position on the subject and agree with many of your sentiments expressed here.

I seem to have lost track of what we are arguing about at this point in this thread.

While trying to recall and make sense of the discussions in these 12 pages (yes, 12!), It seems everyone has in different ways mentioned that:
- both objective and subjective approaches are valuable
- sometimes they diverge widely on a piece of audio equipment- we don’t know why always.
- both are being used to various extents while making decisions on purchases
- The science involved in both approaches is constantly evolving
- some prefer to put more faith in one approach than the other (personal choices)
- it is pointless to argue one approach is superior to the other
- It is impossible to change anyone whose mind is set (waste of time)
- we should declare the horse dead and bury it

Fair enough.

Actually I am not flogging the horse ...nor am I looking for brownie points.

Rather my perspective is sharing our opinions, knowledge, experience towards this issue.

But I do notice some strong opinions which has neither the science nor the merit of opinion. Let's say my angst is towards those opinion.

 

[k-pad]

Fair enough.

Actually I am not flogging the horse ...nor am I looking for brownie points.

Rather my perspective is sharing our opinions, knowledge, experience towards this issue.

Sorry to butt in, NK. But I fully get your point.
Which is why I asked: Can someone be a subjectivist without first being an objectivist.
In other words, if I were to reframe my question as a statement, it would be:

some strong opinions which has neither the science nor the merit of opinion.

 

[arj]

Can someone be a subjectivist without first being an objectivist.

so one can be an Objective Subjectivist or Subjective Objectivist ...or maybe just an Objector with a twist

 

[Analogous]

Maybe the question we should be asking ourselves is:

Is it possible for anyone to be a pure subjectivist or a pure objectivist?

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Maybe the question we should be asking ourselves is:

Is it possible for anyone to be a pure subjectivist or a pure objectivist?

The poor (not to mention) dead horse would like to ask if you're being serious

 

[Bloom@83]

Maybe the question we should be asking ourselves is:

Is it possible for anyone to be a pure subjectivist or a pure objectivist?

For pursuing science of audio reproduction, one has to be a pure objectivist.

For buying or upgrading gear to enjoy music , one need not be an objectivist at all.

For troubleshooting said gear when it does not sound right , one has to be bit of both.

And please continue with the flogging.

 

[k-pad]

so one can be an Objective Subjectivist or Subjective Objectivist ...or maybe just an Objector with a twist

Sir,
Aapne mera serious savaal ka mazak bana diya

 

[Analogous]

The poor (not to mention) dead horse would like to ask if you're being serious

I am dead serious sir!!!

 

[prem]

Most of us tend to forget that music is not an amalgamation of sonic virtues

 

[Analogous]

This discussion made me feel a bit guilty about being a bit tilted towards the subjective.
In an effort to correct this I got this laser measure! (I can also use it presentations and pointing out finer details in audio)

 

[k-pad]

Maybe the question we should be asking ourselves is:

Is it possible for anyone to be a pure subjectivist or a pure objectivist?

Not

 

[Enkay78]

For pursuing science of audio reproduction, one has to be a pure objectivist.

For buying or upgrading gear to enjoy music , one need not be an objectivist at all.

For troubleshooting said gear when it does not sound right , one has to be bit of both.

And please continue with the flogging.

There it is.

 

[k-pad]

I wonder what is the motivation on still buying a product after knowing it has some obvious flaws?

Live-a-bility!
Are the good things that the product brings to the table worth living with on a daily basis vis-a-vis the obvious flaws it has?
Then it is is a good product for the buyer.
I think there ends the story.

 

[k-pad]

<My cut begins> ASR and other measurements websites are influencing lot of young buyers who are new into the hobby. When you look at Reddit or even YouTube comments you can see them everywhere. <My cut ends>

If someone wants to base their purchase based on ASR, they are most welcome. We shouldn't feel bad for them, unless they are choosing hardcore electronics.
Even there, I have my doubts.

 

[k-pad]

Folks..reminder on forum rules before we go south

HiFiVision.com - Forum Rules

www.hifivision.com

Why does every recent thread have to descend to Arj, or NL, or Nik reading the riot act?!
It was not like this even six months ago.