Objectivity vs Subjectivity

Rega Turntables
Reviving this thread, I don't know how many people watch Thomas and Stereo, and like his views or not. But this is a good way of saying measurements don't mean everything, I remember once he said he is building a amplifier and the measurements were awesome and perfect but when he and his friends heard and listend to it, the amplifier sounded crap.
Appreciated how he is highlighted this.

Screenshot_20220127-165048_YouTube.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Not trying to revive this thread but couldnt help sharing here Kimmosto's opinion (because he is an internationally respected speaker designer who been designing/helping companies to design great speakers for the last 30+ years, since before all this hype about directivity came along) about what Amir from ASR calls as "errors" in directivity index. Please also dont consider this post as some sort of allegation about what Amir is doing. It is just a reminder to put things in the right perspective and give things only the attention they deserve and not more.

VituixCAD

...uses the term "directivity error" to describe any DI shape that is other than a straight line that gently rises. Also level of directivity index has big role in this. Large speakers with DI~5 dB at LF and rising towards HF don't need very linear DI spectrum. Small conventional speakers can't...
www.diyaudio.com www.diyaudio.com

Pasting Kimmosto's comment here from above:
"Also level of directivity index has big role in this. Large speakers with DI~5 dB at LF and rising towards HF don't need very linear DI spectrum. Small conventional speakers can't move you "there" without listening at near field so they're better try to emulate features of original sound sources; to move instruments and vocalist into your room. This requires some assumptions/statistics about recordings; how close/far mics typically are etc. Original sound sources such as human head, cello or piano don't have linear DI spectrum so reproduction in conventional room with speakers having very linear or too steep diving DI at mid-range sound retracted/distant, less natural and presence (=dead). Respectively, speakers with more constant/flat DI at mid up to ca. 1 kHz and then smooth steepen towards HF sound more alive, natural and present.
Directivity is not the only feature having effect on naturalness. Timing down to bass range and dynamics should be good too.
I guess experience and controlling this kind of details is not very common. Generic studies focusing to mediocre consumer products with random samples can't detect all nuances in a controlled way. It would be sad if such basic science develops into a religion on any forum"
 
amrutmhatre90 said:
Reviving this thread, I don't know how many people watch Thomas and Stereo, and like his views or not. But this is a good way of saying measurements don't mean everything, I remember once he said he is building a amplifier and the measurements were awesome and perfect but when he and his friends heard and listend to it, the amplifier sounded crap.
Appreciated how he is highlighted this.

View attachment 66678
Click to expand...
apparently his amp was not measured by any standard measurements or by anyone other than him. He just said he made it, never gave any proof.
 
Subjective vs Objective vs SOB-jective

“Great audio is achieved by a blend of objective expertise and subjective wisdom”

Do you believe in this?
I believe in it because of the duality of sound.

Duality 1
Stimulus vs sensation
Sound is a wave motion in an elastic or air media which acts as a stimulus, stimulating the particles in the media. (Objective)
Sound also leads to excitation of human hearing mechanisms leading to how we perceive sound. It is a sensation. (subjective)
------------
Duality 2
Acoustics vs psychoacoustics.
Acoustics is the study of how sound behaves physically. (Objective)
Psychoacoustics is the study of how sound is perceived by humans. (Subjective)
------------
Duality 3
Frequency vs pitch
Frequency is objective - defined as the number of waveforms per second.

Pitch is subjective- it is the frequency perceived by the human ear for same frequencies played at different volume levels.
Harver Fletcher experiment to demonstrate frequency-pitch interaction.
At increased SPL the test frequencies 168 hz and 318 hz were perceived as 150 hz and 300 hz.
------------
Duality 4
Spectrum vs Timbre
Spectrum is the fundamental frequency + a series of its harmonics of various amplitudes and phases.
Timbre is the perceived spectrum of sound which is complicated by frequency-pitch interaction.
------------

“ The study of audio and acoustics involves both Science and Art.”
“Remember to begin with science, and forget not to end with trained ears being the ultimate judge.”


I am a SOBjectivist. What are you? ;)

Being on one side is like running with one leg.
 
Apologies for rant in advance, and jumping in a raging thread. Will try to keep it short, I promise. Also, this train of thoughts will be as *incoherent as always ;)

Objectivity is rational. Subjectivity isn't, or is it so? Are we in this, for science or experience?

Here's one chart of fundamental frequencies of various instruments (and notes) . Do they sound same at same note? Nope. What follows post the note, makes the instrument distinct! Otherwise one instrument would have been enough.
"Tech Stuff - Frequency Ranges" https://www.zytrax.com/tech/audio/audio.html

Many on the forum have listened to bulbul. Does "Banjo" on synthesiser sound the same?

I also recall the debates around how MP3s, wavs, ogg vorbis etc. And of course "golden ears". Now these debates have moved further to MQAs, FLAC, DSD etc. I know, I'm mixing containers to formats.

But, does the science approve the "output" aka experience or is it truthful to reproduction? Don't even consider the 15" stereo (Capitol records!?). As, many pointed out: What's the service/use of "mono tone" measurements bringing out?


Moreover: The scientific community has limitations of resources and "standards". But, YOU on other hand, don't! If you love it, and can afford... Be the fool to embrace it. Nobody else will.


Closing the rant with this.
"Reconsidering Julian Hirsch | Sound & Vision" https://www.soundandvision.com/content/reconsidering-julian-hirsch

Thanks for patience!
 
Reviving a this again,

undertaker-wake-up.gif

A controversial topic discussed by some folks, go through it if one has 30mins to spare. A good conversation between to chaps.

 
square_wave said:
If one were to just follow ASR's recommendations, one can just buy audio gear online without listening to it. Just like T-Shirts. And then just believe they sound good because ASR said so.
Click to expand...
And many buy after ogling/caressing the gear physically and after listening in the dealers treated room and after going wow saying: <InsertArtisteOfChoice> sounded as if he/she was on my lap!
Then they hook up what they bought in their room and it sounds like ca ca, but they still have to pretend it sounds good, all the while kicking themselves within.

True story! :p
 
square_wave said:
If one were to just follow ASR's recommendations, one can just buy audio gear online without listening to it. Just like T-Shirts. And then just believe they sound good because ASR said so.
Click to expand...
Depends on what you are expecting out of a tshirt. If it’s nailing the fit , then measure your torso, compare it with the dimensions of the tshirt your looking online and you know if it fits your body even without trying it out. Most companies have various useful dimensions of product.

Buy few tshirts with slightly different dimensions and try them which one is good on you. One you find the sweet spot, buy other tshirts with similar dimensions. You may not be disappointed by the fit.


Hear few speakers with different measurements and find the correlation between measurement and the real world sound and find out what combination of measurements favors your taste.

Next time when you are looking for a new one you can ignore the worst sounding ones from the measurements.
 
keith_correa said:
And many buy after ogling/caressing the gear physically and after listening in the dealers treated room and after going wow saying: <InsertArtisteOfChoice> sounded as if he/she was on my lap!
Then they hook up what they bought in their room and it sounds like ca ca, but they still have to pretend it sounds good, all the while kicking themselves within.

True story! :p
Click to expand...
Don’t forget the WAF and peer pressure!

So, after 18 pages of this discussion I have learnt that we can’t trust measurements alone, we can’t trust our ears, there is no guarantee that equipment that costs a lot will sound good/better, we can’t trust marketing and hype by reviewers, we can’t trust recommendations from audiophiles who don’t agree amongst themselves, we can’t trust it will sound good based on how it looks, we don’t have the option of home audition before deciding to buy or get refunds,…the WAF (I am not going there)
There surely must be someone to blame for this state of affairs!!!
 
Analogous said:
So, after 18 pages of this discussion I have learnt that we can’t trust measurements alone, we can’t trust our ears, there is no guarantee that equipment that costs a lot will sound good/better, we can’t trust marketing and hype by reviewers, we can’t trust recommendations from audiophiles who don’t agree amongst themselves, we can’t trust it will sound good based on how it looks, we don’t have the option of home audition before deciding to buy or get refunds,…the WAF (I am not going there)
There surely must be someone to blame for this state of affairs!!!
Click to expand...
Good summary!

We have ourselves to blame. We are human afterall!
 
Analogous said:
So, after 18 pages of this discussion I have learnt that we can’t trust measurements alone, we can’t trust our ears, there is no guarantee that equipment that costs a lot will sound good/better, we can’t trust marketing and hype by reviewers, we can’t trust recommendations from audiophiles who don’t agree amongst themselves, we can’t trust it will sound good based on how it looks, we don’t have the option of home audition before deciding to buy or get refunds,…the WAF (I am not going there)
There surely must be someone to blame for this state of affairs!!!
Click to expand...
I buy and return audio gear for this exact reason as I live in Europe now. I understand not everyone has the opportunity to do this.
 
keith_correa said:
And many buy after ogling/caressing the gear physically and after listening in the dealers treated room and after going wow saying: <InsertArtisteOfChoice> sounded as if he/she was on my lap!
Then they hook up what they bought in their room and it sounds like ca ca, but they still have to pretend it sounds good, all the while kicking themselves within.

True story! :p
Click to expand...
True. This works vice versa too. Listening in your home is important. At least listening in a typical environment if not your own home is important.

Your point actually makes " listening " very important. That is the only thing that matters.
 
square_wave said:
Listening in your home is important.
Click to expand...
If making a decision with one's ears, I would call that not just important but critical.
square_wave said:
At least listening in a typical environment if not your own home is important.
Click to expand...
If not your home, this animal does not exist.
square_wave said:
Your point actually makes " listening " very important. That is the only thing that matters.
Click to expand...
Another PoV would be that the shortlist of what to listen to should be based on good measuring gear.
 
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