Objectivity vs Subjectivity

Passive_audio_enthusiast

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Due to audioscsiencereview’s bad reviews on Hegel, naim, regas and so on the resale value on these stuff has taken a huge hit. And day by day more and more people are switching camps/getting educated about what to look for in audio. So, consider getting something which is decent in measurements and sounds good to your ears at the same time to avoid disappointment in few years. Colored sound would give an immediate satisfaction but once you start noticing that amps filter in everything you hear you would want something different. A transparent amp on the other hand would be boring at first, but once you start noticing the differences in different recording styles of different artists without filtering by the amp, you would be forgetting more About the gear. Over the years, I have used lot of hifi targeted amps like atoll, gold note, holfi, creek and several niche brands. Every time when you hear it for the first weeks you will be flattered, then the excitement dies as that particular coloring is intrusive to the music all the time. It used to be easy to flip them when you don’t like it but now if you put any of them on sale,anyone who looks for a used amp who knows how to “google search” would land in the audiosciencereview’s page would be reluctant to buy them regardless of their positive reviews. Nobody wants a product which is bashed by 100s of random guys on internet.

They say end of the day, trust your ears but I would say, trust your ears only after you do your homework. Otherwise the moment you discover some of the flaws, then there is no way back.
 

keith_correa

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Personally, I find the ASR fraternity rude and hostile.
Any hint of subjectivity is met with an outpouring of derision. Perhaps, they should start by measuring their own responses.
Your brush strokes are too broad. I think that's unfair to the "fraternity". Many of them are but that's true of many forums including the big daddy of them all DIYA!
 
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Enkay78

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Here’s a ‘major contributor’ at ASR responding to a fellow FM who stated that he didn’t need a blind test to tell the difference between CDs and SACDs:

“really? never needed eh?
could your wife hear the difference from the kitchen?”

Took me less than a minute to find a nasty comment.
Personally, I find the ASR fraternity rude and hostile. Any hint of subjectivity is met with an outpouring of derision. Perhaps, they should start by measuring their own responses.
The opposite also true.

To just proclaim that he can hear the difference between CD and SACD without any measurable evidence is as much nasty.

.......because research and blind test has many evidential data.
 
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Vineethkumar01

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I request anyone wanting to add personal flavor of "colorations" in a sound system's "voicing" through equipment purchase to play around with a simple EQ. At least the simple 5 band EQ on amazon music or other apps and hear it through a pair of even cheap headphones. Take the EQ in each band to the extremes and hear how it sounds. That will be some real information/education regarding which part of a supposedly completely "objective" parameter such as frequency response affects which part of what we hear. :D
In my opinion, there is a reason behind why objectivists run behind measurements, at least the frequency response. The objective is not "flat" or "accurate". Most often it is to strike a balance for those who don't want to change EQ settings for every song that is played. There is no grand truth in audio. It is all perspective colored by our inherent biases. :)
 
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DB1989

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I request anyone wanting to add personal flavor of "colorations" in a sound system's "voicing" through equipment purchase to play around with a simple EQ. At least the simple 5 band EQ on amazon music or other apps and hear it through a pair of even cheap headphones. Take the EQ in each band to the extremes and hear how it sounds. That will be some real information/education regarding which part of a supposedly completely "objective" parameter such as frequency response affects which part of what we hear. :D
In my opinion, there is a reason behind why objectivists run behind measurements, at least the frequency response. The objective is not "flat" or "accurate". Most often it is to strike a balance for those who don't want to change EQ settings for every song that is played. There is no grand truth in audio. It is all perspective colored by our inherent biases. :)
Amen!

I play around with measurements quite a bit (basically try to get them as linear as possible) but I'm an outright subjectivist. Just got myself an RME ADI-2 DAC FS to add some seasoning as per taste.
 
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Passive_audio_enthusiast

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i think people are just misunderstanding or overlooking what I am trying to say seeing “measurements”. Just because I like better measured products, I would conisider it as my only preference. I never said, anyone should follow it.

Forget good measurments; consider just “measurements”. all I am saying is measurements are good to know “how something sounds” as all the necessary data is out there. It’s possible to decide if a product “fits” you by looking closely at several different measurements.

On the contrary if we listen at a store which is much different to our room, with other electronics, it will be quite different at our own homes.

Imo, if you study how to interpret them well, without even listening to it, you can understand how it sounds. But a little bit of personal experience about how different signatures is necessary beforehand.

And I stand by my view, ASR and other measurements websites are influencing lot of young buyers who are new into the hobby. When you look at Reddit or even YouTube comments you can see them everywhere. I have so many flawed devices I at home, which I previously bought only because of placebo. It was painful for me to digest that I wasted my hard earned money on things that never mattered.

I still have them around because many of them looks nice and are not junk but nowhere near the speciality they claim they have.
 
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Passive_audio_enthusiast

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I request anyone wanting to add personal flavor of "colorations" in a sound system's "voicing" through equipment purchase to play around with a simple EQ. At least the simple 5 band EQ on amazon music or other apps and hear it through a pair of even cheap headphones. Take the EQ in each band to the extremes and hear how it sounds. That will be some real information/education regarding which part of a supposedly completely "objective" parameter such as frequency response affects which part of what we hear. :D
In my opinion, there is a reason behind why objectivists run behind measurements, at least the frequency response. The objective is not "flat" or "accurate". Most often it is to strike a balance for those who don't want to change EQ settings for every song that is played. There is no grand truth in audio. It is all perspective colored by our inherent biases. :)
There is a grand truth in accurate reproduction. There is no grand truth about “good sound to ears”

And accurate and good may not be the same thing to everyone

Accurate and good are same to some

There is only one accurate, there are many good possibilities (subjevtively)

Why ASR and other measurements get their bash is they vouch by accurate is the only good and that hurts the ego of veterans.
 
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raghupb

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C'mon guys, haven't we beaten this very subject to death in many threads? Why are we flogging the long dead horse over and over?
This particular horse had bad karma in it's previous lives. So it will be reborn again and again in the future too.
Just to be flogged to death yet another time.
Cheers,
Raghu
 
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Vineethkumar01

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There is a grand truth in accurate reproduction. There is no grand truth about “good sound to ears”

And accurate and good may not be the same thing to everyone

Accurate and good are same to some

There is only one accurate, there are many good possibilities (subjevtively)

Why ASR and other measurements get their bash is they vouch by accurate is the only good and that hurts the ego of veterans.
Well, you are preaching to the 'converted' :p
I'm out. :D
 
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liverpool_for_life

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C'mon guys, haven't we beaten this very subject to death in many threads? Why are we flogging the long dead horse over and over?

Because this argument is always setup as being binary. You are either an objectivist or a subjectivist and your identity wrt this hobby is tied to picking one side over the other. However, there are folks who value both in varying proportions, are comfortable not being in either group and don't see a need for pigeonholing themselves. And they generally tend to keep their own counsel as it is quite likely they'll be shouted over by both sides.
 
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keith_correa

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do we have any measurements to see how much we have beaten to death ? maybe of the horse ...:p
No measurements, I rely on my ears! If I like the sound of me flogging it, nothing else matters and the objectivists [ably captained by Amir] who always seem to have a hidden agenda to destroy the world can go to hell. Oh, and BTW, I also believe in alien abduction! ;)
 
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Passive_audio_enthusiast

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The virtue of these amps can be understood only if the room, speakers and dac adds no coloration to it. For example, it may look like PA5 outperforms others, but it maintains its qualities of high SNR only up to 5 watts. For near field, it’s plenty enough. But if we replace it with a hifi amp in large room running difficult speakers and on the top runs a room correction WITH SOME BASS ENHANCEMENT (you need more power to produce bass) it easily would go past 5watts. And then they may not find it any different than a traditional amp. So, for a person who looked at the SNR values and bought it for a purpose outside it’s comfort zone, they may end up disappointed. So it’s a combination of more than one parameter that determines how it’s going to sound. However irrespsective of higher SNR, it’s a tonally uncolored amp.

End of the day on a desktop the topping gives a glimpse of at extreme transparency at reasonable loudness levels.
 
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