keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Your brush strokes are too broad. I think that's unfair to the "fraternity". Many of them are but that's true of many forums including the big daddy of them all DIYA!
Objectivity vs Subjectivity
- Thread starter Passive_audio_enthusiast
- Start date
What can I say; I’m a lousy artist
Agreed, most forums can be pretty abrasive. Which is why I hold HFV in high regard.
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
The opposite also true.
To just proclaim that he can hear the difference between CD and SACD without any measurable evidence is as much nasty.
.......because research and blind test has many evidential data.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
C'mon guys, haven't we beaten this very subject to death in many threads? Why are we flogging the long dead horse over and over?
panditji
Well-Known Member
So which amps measure well as per ASR?
Vineethkumar01
Well-Known Member
I request anyone wanting to add personal flavor of "colorations" in a sound system's "voicing" through equipment purchase to play around with a simple EQ. At least the simple 5 band EQ on amazon music or other apps and hear it through a pair of even cheap headphones. Take the EQ in each band to the extremes and hear how it sounds. That will be some real information/education regarding which part of a supposedly completely "objective" parameter such as frequency response affects which part of what we hear.
In my opinion, there is a reason behind why objectivists run behind measurements, at least the frequency response. The objective is not "flat" or "accurate". Most often it is to strike a balance for those who don't want to change EQ settings for every song that is played. There is no grand truth in audio. It is all perspective colored by our inherent biases.
In my opinion, there is a reason behind why objectivists run behind measurements, at least the frequency response. The objective is not "flat" or "accurate". Most often it is to strike a balance for those who don't want to change EQ settings for every song that is played. There is no grand truth in audio. It is all perspective colored by our inherent biases.
Amen!I request anyone wanting to add personal flavor of "colorations" in a sound system's "voicing" through equipment purchase to play around with a simple EQ. At least the simple 5 band EQ on amazon music or other apps and hear it through a pair of even cheap headphones. Take the EQ in each band to the extremes and hear how it sounds. That will be some real information/education regarding which part of a supposedly completely "objective" parameter such as frequency response affects which part of what we hear.
In my opinion, there is a reason behind why objectivists run behind measurements, at least the frequency response. The objective is not "flat" or "accurate". Most often it is to strike a balance for those who don't want to change EQ settings for every song that is played. There is no grand truth in audio. It is all perspective colored by our inherent biases.
I play around with measurements quite a bit (basically try to get them as linear as possible) but I'm an outright subjectivist. Just got myself an RME ADI-2 DAC FS to add some seasoning as per taste.
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
i think people are just misunderstanding or overlooking what I am trying to say seeing “measurements”. Just because I like better measured products, I would conisider it as my only preference. I never said, anyone should follow it.
Forget good measurments; consider just “measurements”. all I am saying is measurements are good to know “how something sounds” as all the necessary data is out there. It’s possible to decide if a product “fits” you by looking closely at several different measurements.
On the contrary if we listen at a store which is much different to our room, with other electronics, it will be quite different at our own homes.
Imo, if you study how to interpret them well, without even listening to it, you can understand how it sounds. But a little bit of personal experience about how different signatures is necessary beforehand.
And I stand by my view, ASR and other measurements websites are influencing lot of young buyers who are new into the hobby. When you look at Reddit or even YouTube comments you can see them everywhere. I have so many flawed devices I at home, which I previously bought only because of placebo. It was painful for me to digest that I wasted my hard earned money on things that never mattered.
I still have them around because many of them looks nice and are not junk but nowhere near the speciality they claim they have.
Forget good measurments; consider just “measurements”. all I am saying is measurements are good to know “how something sounds” as all the necessary data is out there. It’s possible to decide if a product “fits” you by looking closely at several different measurements.
On the contrary if we listen at a store which is much different to our room, with other electronics, it will be quite different at our own homes.
Imo, if you study how to interpret them well, without even listening to it, you can understand how it sounds. But a little bit of personal experience about how different signatures is necessary beforehand.
And I stand by my view, ASR and other measurements websites are influencing lot of young buyers who are new into the hobby. When you look at Reddit or even YouTube comments you can see them everywhere. I have so many flawed devices I at home, which I previously bought only because of placebo. It was painful for me to digest that I wasted my hard earned money on things that never mattered.
I still have them around because many of them looks nice and are not junk but nowhere near the speciality they claim they have.
I think "objectivity" will always remain a subjective matter. - it can never die
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
There is a grand truth in accurate reproduction. There is no grand truth about “good sound to ears”I request anyone wanting to add personal flavor of "colorations" in a sound system's "voicing" through equipment purchase to play around with a simple EQ. At least the simple 5 band EQ on amazon music or other apps and hear it through a pair of even cheap headphones. Take the EQ in each band to the extremes and hear how it sounds. That will be some real information/education regarding which part of a supposedly completely "objective" parameter such as frequency response affects which part of what we hear.
In my opinion, there is a reason behind why objectivists run behind measurements, at least the frequency response. The objective is not "flat" or "accurate". Most often it is to strike a balance for those who don't want to change EQ settings for every song that is played. There is no grand truth in audio. It is all perspective colored by our inherent biases.
And accurate and good may not be the same thing to everyone
Accurate and good are same to some
There is only one accurate, there are many good possibilities (subjevtively)
Why ASR and other measurements get their bash is they vouch by accurate is the only good and that hurts the ego of veterans.
This particular horse had bad karma in it's previous lives. So it will be reborn again and again in the future too.
Just to be flogged to death yet another time.
Cheers,
Raghu
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Let's forget ASR for the moment and try to wrap these facts around our head w.r.t. audio amplifiers.
Get these right and you get an amplifier right. It takes a lot to get these right but that's another discussion.
Get these right and you get an amplifier right. It takes a lot to get these right but that's another discussion.
Vineethkumar01
Well-Known Member
do we have any measurements to see how much we have beaten to death ? maybe of the horse ...
Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index
Master table and index of all audio equipment reviews and measurements.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Takes a few clicks to filter and display what you are looking for.
Cheers,
Raghu
liverpool_for_life
Well-Known Member
Because this argument is always setup as being binary. You are either an objectivist or a subjectivist and your identity wrt this hobby is tied to picking one side over the other. However, there are folks who value both in varying proportions, are comfortable not being in either group and don't see a need for pigeonholing themselves. And they generally tend to keep their own counsel as it is quite likely they'll be shouted over by both sides.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
No measurements, I rely on my ears! If I like the sound of me flogging it, nothing else matters and the objectivists [ably captained by Amir] who always seem to have a hidden agenda to destroy the world can go to hell. Oh, and BTW, I also believe in alien abduction!do we have any measurements to see how much we have beaten to death ? maybe of the horse ...
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
Nope.I think "objectivity" will always remain a subjective matter. - it can never die
Objective will remain objective irrespective of subjective parameters.
This is a fundamental of being objective.
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
The virtue of these amps can be understood only if the room, speakers and dac adds no coloration to it. For example, it may look like PA5 outperforms others, but it maintains its qualities of high SNR only up to 5 watts. For near field, it’s plenty enough. But if we replace it with a hifi amp in large room running difficult speakers and on the top runs a room correction WITH SOME BASS ENHANCEMENT (you need more power to produce bass) it easily would go past 5watts. And then they may not find it any different than a traditional amp. So, for a person who looked at the SNR values and bought it for a purpose outside it’s comfort zone, they may end up disappointed. So it’s a combination of more than one parameter that determines how it’s going to sound. However irrespsective of higher SNR, it’s a tonally uncolored amp.
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