PC playback as an alternative to CD Players

[ajinkya]

Venkat,
Curious about some of the points, so replying to them in order:

(1) Ensure the sound card uses ASIO or WASAPI. This side steps a lot of 'noisy' parts of the MB through which the music data travels.

From my understanding of ASIO, it sidesteps a bulk of the Win API, so the system can transfer music data to the soundcard using a lesser number of system calls (and associated memory/time overhead). I don't see how it relates to sidestepping the hardware on the circuit itself. Could you please explain?

(2) Un-install all unnecessary programs including IE. At the max, you must use the OS, drivers for the sound card, and a program to play your music. Remove unwanted drivers. Use a cleaner such as CCleaner before your start playing your music. This will wipe out all cookies, clean the registry, and empty the cache.

The only step which can affect the performance of the PC as far as music is concerned should be removal of unwanted drivers, especially those that access USB or firewire interfaces. How does removing cookies, IE etc. help the performance? I agree it's good practice to regularly clean the software, but that is not going to affect the real-time music playback on PC, as far as I can see.

(3) Use a powerful power unit - between 800 to 1000 watts. Set it on performance mode.

Shouldn't the power unit depend on what's in the PC? If the soundcard is an external DAC, I think any power unit capable of supporting the PC hardware should be sufficient.

(4) Use 7200 or 10,000 RPM drives. If you are using HDDs with lower speed, transfer your music to high speed drives, and use the old HDDs elsewhere.

Again, why so? We've been using 5400 rpm drives for large volume data transfer for a long time. In addition, for music playback, the choice of HDD is moot because most programs (J River, CPlay, and I think foobar with plugin) have the option of transferring the complete song file to memory before playback. So the speed of the hdd is completely taken out of the equation. And 5400 rpm is not that noisy compared to the 7200 rpm that you could

(5) Do not connect any external hardware to the machine other than keyboard, mouse, and a monitor. No external drives, no cameras, and no pen drives. If you to transfer data, you must do that, removes the external drives, and the use the PC for playing music.

Seems very restrictive. Many users have a NAS or large, terabyte external HDD for backup and transfer. What is the aim of this step?

(6) Use a single software application for playing music. Do not experiment with innumerable versions every time some one screams hoarse about a new version. Remember, playing music is not magical. If your card/software uses ASIO/WASAPI, the system is already optimized to the max.

New versions can bring better ASIO drivers, removal of performance bugs, and support for newer file formats. So, one should try them out. But, in general, you're right about keeping the software bloat down.

(7) Enable cache read/write. This will speed up you HDD I/O.

Again, with memory-loaded files, this may not be needed. How does one enable this feature? In the driver or is there a general OS setting?

(8) Do not use the PC for ripping your audio CDs. That will mean one more software, and that is a no no. Use another machine and install EAC in that.

Again, this seems restrictive. I regularly use EAC on my music PC and nothing has been impacted performance-wise. What is the rationale behind this step?

(9) Change the power cable that came with the power unit. You can make a very reasonable power cable at less than a 1000 rupees. Use a three pin plug at the power socket end that sits well into your socket. Ensure there is no EMI/RFI or spikes in your power supply.

It is very difficult to eliminate RF/EMI from a switched mode power suppy (SMPS) that is ubiquitous in today's PC. A better alternative would be an outboard USB/Firewire/SPDIF DAC with its own external power supply. That way, all the noise is limited to the PC internal case and does not affect the digital to analog conversion process in the DAC.

(10) Do not connect your PC to a local area network. Disable all OS services that are not needed.

Again, too restrictive. Many use the network to update software, download music files from sites, use online radio services etc. Keeping your PC unconnected seems like a strategy from the "Cold War" days


Thanks,
Ajinkya.

 

[ajinkya]

Mac has a number of limitations including file types. It cannot read FLAC that has kind of become the de-facto industry standard for high resolution music storage.

Cheers

Venkat,

This is true of Windows as well. As far as I recall, WMP does not play FLAC directly either. It needs a plugin to decode and playback FLAC.

Apple now has such a plugin to read FLAC files:
Download Fluke for Mac - Listen to FLAC files in iTunes. MacUpdate.com

Here is a simple guide on using it:
How to play .flac files in iTunes – Simple Help

-Ajinkya.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

High power, electrical or computing, is not required for audio playback. It's been working fine on pcs for a long, long time.

It doesn't matter how much software you have installed on your PC, it is what you run that matters.

If your PC is never connected to the outside world, and normal care is taken with media, anti-virus software is not needed. Normal care, of course, excludes your mate plugging in his thumb drive to play a few songs. Many people would not want to exclude this. Anti-virus(/etc) software has become ridiculously heavyweight, to the point where older machines will barely run anything else. An exception (at least for now): Microsoft's Security Centre!!!

The point of not connecting external drives or devices is to keep the bus as free as possible. It shouldn't make much difference, but that depends a lot on the particular motherboard. Apparently, one of the worst things you can put in an audio PC is a wireless network adapter ... so keep it wired, or keep it off your net!

Builtins are, effectively, much the same as addins, so, if not in use, one might consider disabling in the BIOS (unused network adapters, built-in sound adapters, etc).

Much of the dogma is just that. Any particular item might be vital on a particular system and irrelevant on another. That is especially true with Windows, which seems to have random behaviour built in.

If you have no browser on your audio machine, then you have no cookies, cache, etc. The registry really doesn't matter that much (err, it is vital, but organising it doesn't have much effect). A non general purpose pc will not be filling up the temp directory, or leaving stray temp files all over the place.

The only performance enhancer that I can think of is to defrag your disks once in a while, because the read-speed improvement might help. Given the nature of the application, though, even this is probably not going to be much needed. The machine is going to be acquisitive. Data, when written, will be written in fairly large chunks (say, a CD's worth, and it will very rarely be deleted.

 

[venkatcr]

Members, I have deleted the posts related to car audio as well as the posts that talk about free downloads. The first was derailing this thread, and the second discussion is not allowed in HFV.

Please discuss only PC and PC Audio here.

Shanthi, I will also be obliged if you use regular fonts and normal colour. I am not sure you are aware, but in forums using large fonts and other colour is akin to shouting.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

I must say I may not provide too technical an answer to your queries. I have gathered these from various forums and reading computeraudiophile.com. Let me see if I can answer these questions. To a certain extent Thad has also answered some of the questions.

From my understanding of ASIO, it sidesteps a bulk of the Win API, so the system can transfer music data to the soundcard using a lesser number of system calls (and associated memory/time overhead). I don't see how it relates to sidestepping the hardware on the circuit itself. Could you please explain?

In a way you have explained it yourself. A sound card enables the music data to travel to your DAC in the shortest path possible. If you use the MB's I/O, it will use a longer path, not necessarily through the PCI, or PCI/E. ASIO works at the kernel level, sidestepping many OS calls.

Shouldn't the power unit depend on what's in the PC? If the soundcard is an external DAC, I think any power unit capable of supporting the PC hardware should be sufficient.

Yes, it does. I am assuming you are going to use the PC for audio purposes for a few years. You may add more hardware later, maybe just hard drives. It is safe to have some extra power in hand.

Again, why so? We've been using 5400 rpm drives for large volume data transfer for a long time. In addition, for music playback, the choice of HDD is moot because most programs (J River, CPlay, and I think foobar with plugin) have the option of transferring the complete song file to memory before playback. So the speed of the hdd is completely taken out of the equation.

Simply to reduce latency time as much as possible. Faster reads means faster transfer to RAM, and the wait time between songs will be reduced.

Seems very restrictive. Many users have a NAS or large, terabyte external HDD for backup and transfer. What is the aim of this step?

Any kind of interface to external devices mean drivers and software. Today you can install 6 to 8 TB internally, and I don't think you need more space of a dedicated PC for audio.

Again, with memory-loaded files, this may not be needed. How does one enable this feature? In the driver or is there a general OS setting?

It is explained in the links I have provided.

Again, this seems restrictive. I regularly use EAC on my music PC and nothing has been impacted performance-wise. What is the rationale behind this step?

Just restricting the amount of software you have on the PC. EAC works with literally all drives and has the offset in a database. I use my laptop to rip using EAC, and then transfer the files once in a while.

Again, too restrictive. Many use the network to update software, download music files from sites, use online radio services etc. Keeping your PC unconnected seems like a strategy from the "Cold War" days

You can do all that by connecting the PC directly to the NET. If you connect to a LAN, you are loading the memory with some 'watchers' for LAN traffic and the necessary drivers for all that.

Cheers

 

[bhagwan]

Shanthi, I will also be obliged if you use regular fonts and normal colour. I am not sure you are aware, but in forums using large fonts and other colour is akin to shouting.

Cheers

I am sorry;
I was under the impression that using capital was the same as shouting;
Changing the colour of the font is shouting ? I was not aware...
I shall refrain.

p.s. Why does the forum give the option of fonts & colours ? [just a generic question] !!
to shout ?

btw = my signature too is 'coloured' does that imply that I am 'shouting' ??
[I just use colour to get some life into the post, else it gets too much of a 'drab' to read] !!

 

[ajay124]

venkatcr

I know it is not going to happen, but personally I feel that there should be no smileys (ultimately inane and meaningless), bold, italics, underlining or colour options. Whatever we write should speak for itself. The power of our posts should come from the language we use and the ideas we convey.

I too use smileys and italics in my posts, but using them makes me feel like I am 'cheating'....trying to attract the viewers attention through gimmicks, rather than words and thoughts.

 

[venkatcr]

p.s. Why does the forum give the option of fonts & colours ? [just a generic question] !! to shout ?

HFV uses a standard software that is available for forums so these facilities are available.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

Interesting posts. Plenty of information. I have placed all my chips on an Esoteric cdp, therefore for me the computer v/s cdp debate is purely academic at the moment, but there is no harm in watching from the sidelines

Before cutting the cheque for a CDP, I (strongly) think you should listen to a well made audio PC with a Lynx or Asus card, connected to a reputable DAC such as one from Benchmark, Bel Canto, Bryston, Arcam, etc. You may change your mind. This may sound like a clich, but after the couple of times I heard my audio PC (yes it is not fully set up as of now (laziness, lack of time, lure of movies?)), I have found all other sources to be insipid.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

Before cutting the cheque for a CDP, I (strongly) think you should listen to a well made audio PC with a Lynx or Asus card, connected to a reputable DAC such as one from Benchmark, Bel Canto, Bryston, Arcam, etc. You may change your mind. This may sound like a clich, but after the couple of times I heard my audio PC (yes it is not fully set up as of now (laziness, lack of time, lure of movies?)), I have found all other sources to be insipid.

Cheers

venkat

It is quite possible that what you say is correct. But I have already cut the cheque (for me a big one) and paid for the Esoteric SA10. Whether I did the right thing or commited a blunder, will only be known when I get the cdp in mid August or mid November.

I would love to audition the Berkeley Audio "Alpha' and the Weiss "Minerva" dacs playing Apple Lossless or Flacs.

It is possible that digital recordings are finally coming of age. It is not only high resolution downloads which are getting better, but even redbook cd recordings made in the last few years. Hybrid SACD recordings are becoming more affordable and easily available. These are the recordings I am looking forward to playing on my Esoteric SA10.

Apart from the audiphile angle, there is an aesthetic angle which is very important for me. I love the look of burnished chrome or extruded aluminium which high end cdps and amps have. I would not want a nasty looking computer with wires going all over the place, towering above my audio rack.

This is an excellent thread but it is going only one way. The computer audio way. I believe an equal amount of attention and space needs to be devoted to the great cdps from Esoteric, Accuphase, Meridian, Ayre, Electrocompaniet, Arcam, Naim and Rega before reaching any final conclusion.

The Greeks have passed on their invaluable knowledge of dialogue to the modern world. thesis+antithesis=synthesis.

 

[bhagwan]

but using them makes me feel like I am 'cheating'....trying to attract the viewers attention through gimmicks, rather than words and thoughts.

Interesting point of view;
Thanks.

 

[bhagwan]

audio PC with a Lynx or Asus card, connected to a reputable DAC such as one from Benchmark, Bel Canto, Bryston, Arcam, etc. You may change your mind.
Cheers

The Lynx & ASUS Cards cannot be compared.
The Lynx is a far more serious card as compared to the ASUS - imho.

The DAC's you speak about will not be better than a Teac Esoteric.
Ajay124 is better off with a SA10 as compared to the DAC's you talk about - again - mho

 

[bhagwan]

I would love to audition the Berkeley Audio "Alpha' and the Weiss "Minerva" dacs playing Apple Lossless or Flacs.

The Berklry is a good DAC;
It will better the Teac Esoteric SA10 - for sure.
The Weiss is not in the same league. I used to use it. It is an excellent VFM Product & makes for an ideal 'bridge' [digital interface] but its D 2 A qualities are not up to the mark.

imho the Weiss Minerva is one of the best digital interfaces once can use - 13944 - firewire to AES/EBU or SPD/IF

 

[hydra]

...

Apart from the audiphile angle, there is an aesthetic angle which is very important for me. I love the look of burnished chrome or extruded aluminium which high end cdps and amps have. I would not want a nasty looking computer with wires going all over the place, towering above my audio rack.
...

Something like this isn't too bad, aesthetics-wise, right? I'm a big sucker for brushed aluminium too!

This is an excellent thread but it is going only one way. The computer audio way. I believe an equal amount of attention and space needs to be devoted to the great cdps from Esoteric, Accuphase, Meridian, Ayre, Electrocompaniet, Arcam, Naim and Rega before reaching any final conclusion.
...

You shouldn't take it that way, Ajay. I think the point of this thread is to establish that a PC (paired with a good sound card/DAC or both) can be as good a source as a good CD player.

For people like myself, who prefer to store and access music in the digital format, a CD player is not a very convenient way to play music. But we'd like to have our source be at least as good as a good CD player.

 

[bhagwan]

I feel that Computer Audio should be given a try only after a 'serious' CD Player is owned.
You see, it is not easy for the mind to accept that a CD Player can sound so different ! Basically what I mean to say, is most audiophiles are rather reluctant to spend on an expensive source - at least that has been my observation - so once a person has decided to buy a CD Player [respectable one] he should first buy that. Get satisfied with its performance.
Later the Computer aspect can be explored - that is what I feel.

It is very rare that you will come across a person that takes the plunge into computer audio direct from an 'entry level' cd player.
The mid-fi & hi-fi CD Player needs to be 'explored' !

Ajay - I am sure the SA10 will be a good machine.
Please do get it & use it. It will be a great learning curve.
There is also a Audio Aero CD Player that is available - on this forum & that too should be an option to explore.

 

[ajay124]

hydra

The silverstone looks very nice. I have followed your thread and identify with the rational and individualistic approach you have taken. I find a lot of similarities between your approach and mine. Although the end results may veer off in different directions!

I am not taking it in any particular 'way'. I merely like to look at both sides of the picture. If I feel strongly about something, I try to place myself in the shoes of someone from the opposite camp, in order understand what he is feeling or thinking.

I learnt it from an elementary reading of The Dialogues of Plato. I don't have the intellect to fully understand Socrates, Plato or Aristotle, but even a superficial reading during my college years has influenced me a lot.

 

[bhagwan]

Origen AE Technology - T12 Touch Panel

This might be a 'good' solution to look @

:clapping:

 

[venkatcr]

I feel that Computer Audio should be given a try only after a 'serious' CD Player is owned. You see, it is not easy for the mind to accept that a CD Player can sound so different ! Basically what I mean to say, is most audiophiles are rather reluctant to spend on an expensive source - at least that has been my observation - so once a person has decided to buy a CD Player [respectable one] he should first buy that. Get satisfied with its performance. Later the Computer aspect can be explored - that is what I feel.

Why climb stairs laboriously with expensive stay in each floor when you can take the lift? I agree that a Esoteric is good, but I am quite positive a seriously built Audio PC at half the price can beat the Esoteric or come very very close. With 32/384 DACs emerging in the markets, CDPs are a thing of the past. If you remove the DAC from a CDP, it is just a transport. An audio PC provides the transport in a different way, a much better way I would say. There is no wear and tear, and the same song can be played a zillion times with no reduction in resolution.

Cheers

 

[bhagwan]

If you remove the DAC from a CDP, it is just a transport. An audio PC provides the transport in a different way, a much better way I would say. There is no wear and tear, and the same song can be played a zillion times with no reduction in resolution. Cheers

Well put;

The Computer is a 'damn good transport' !!

I first realised this - many may years back. When I saw the very 1st Meridian CD Players move to a CD Rom based Transport. I realised the change was only obvious. Now, they too have a computer interface - soolloos - so if the guys that were on the fore front of digital technology have shifted, it is only a question of time when the rest follow !!

All said, Teac / Esoteric still builds some of the best CD Transports in the world. So that cannot be discounted..
:indifferent14:

 

[bhagwan]

Origen AE Technology - S16V HTPC Enclosure

Another box to use !
I like the way they look;