PC playback as an alternative to CD Players

[pdhanwada]

Reign of chaos,

It seems there are some M2tech Hifaces in the market with a sub standard oscillators which the manufacturer agrees in the following thread. Have you looked into this thread.

Let me know.

Thanks
Pandu

 

[pdhanwada]

Forgot to post the thread link

HiFace, sensitive information - Head-Fi.org Community

 

[sbfx]

Hello!,

I've been listening to PC Audio for the past 2.5 years, when I made the shift well it wasn't great rather not on par with the CD-Player but I pursued it only for convenience sake as I'm very disorganized to keep my cd's in order and it was a major pain for me to keep changing the cd's after a couple tracks and the frustration of finding the cd when I need it.

I believe a Computer transport today will "BETTER" any cd-transport available on the market as long as its executed correctly, I've tried Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux playback.

All 3 operating systems sound very different while windows being the most convenient for file format support (Flac support) mac being the best interface (iTunes) and linux being downright poor for playback tried different variants of MPD but nothing great yet.

For Windows at the moment the best choice would be use Windows 7 with J-River (WASPAI-Event Style output) which makes sure the USB Audio stack is optimized and override's the windows 7 usb stack.

Foobar is only great in Windows XP with ASIO and if your device supports Kernel Streaming then that would be your best option, but on windows 7 it sounds anemic in comparison, J-River betters it in every parameter.

Mac OS X - This is perhaps the easiest to setup no gibberish like asio, kernel streaming and WASAPI just plain plug and play.

iTunes by default is as good as using Foobar on Windows XP but not better than J-River on Windows 7.

Amarra the latest version 2.1.1 is a "Great" player beats default iTunes hands down, but the highs are for a lack of a better word softer / less pronounced but the micro-dynamics (inner details) are superlative with phenomenal depth (layering, front to back presentation)

Pure Music- This is a anti-thesis of Amarra sound its more forward on well recorded material more open but less forgiving, its closer to the character of J-River.

On the whole I think Mac is more analog and easier to listen to but the biggest DOWNSIDE of a Mac setup is no native support for Flac, amarra and pure music can playback flac but its still not convenient, if one wants to use mac then I suggest they shift and maintain their library in AIFF or ALCC I've considered it but not yet pulled the trigger as I download a lot of music too and everything only comes in flac and thereafter to always convert it is quite a pain.

Hope this helps others while building their servers and I promise you its a solution that is on par or better than a CD-Transport.

Equipment used with computer audio;
Weiss Minerva DAC / Firewire Bridge
EMU 1212M (Very colored but fun!!!)
Bow Technologies DAC (i2s>usb)
Various other dacs that were borrowed from friends that were used with the EMU and Weiss.


Thanks,

Best Regards,

Satyam Bachani.

 

[arj]

Hey great to see your post Satyam.
From all i hav read An Apple mac Mini running Windows 7 might be a very good way forward (sleek form factor) with a firewire hard disk and a good USB-SPDIF converter or USB dac.
Any idea if the Ayre might be a good choice for a USB dac ?

 

[genopv]

How about using Netbooks as a transport? Has anyone tried - is it good (ie, if its connected to DAC using USB or Toslink)? I have been thinking of this option.

 

[reignofchaos]

Yup there's something special about the EMU 1212M. I know it has higher jitter than the rest and is highly colored in output but there's something that just sounds right about it that I haven't been able to achieve with my M2tech interfaces. Maybe its timing, maybe its the rhythm. I just can't put a finger on what it is .

I still use XP so foobar is my only option. I tried JRiver but it just takes ages to switch between tracks. I'm not sure why!

Also I prefer the ASIO4All driver over the EMU 1212M native ASIO driver. Sounds a bit cleaner.

 

[spirovious]

Hello!,
All 3 operating systems sound very different while windows being the most convenient for file format support (Flac support) mac being the best interface (iTunes) and linux being downright poor for playback tried different variants of MPD but nothing great yet.

For Windows at the moment the best choice would be use Windows 7 with J-River (WASPAI-Event Style output) which makes sure the USB Audio stack is optimized and override's the windows 7 usb stack.

Foobar is only great in Windows XP with ASIO and if your device supports Kernel Streaming then that would be your best option, but on windows 7 it sounds anemic in comparison, J-River betters it in every parameter.

.

Hi Satyam,

I dont agree totally as I found Win7 much better than XP.This my opnion is related to xonar D2X only.I find XP anaemic with D2X & win7 drivers doing better job to dig analoge out.

Coming to output option ,asio sounds detailed (win7),louder,but may add some unwanted extra(littly noisy), Kernal streaming sounds good,without noise,but outputs low(volume)Not as fuller as asio.

The best mid option is wasapi,which sounds clean,open & enjoyable.
Asio working best with Cplay in Win7.I am writting my observations with D2X analoge out only.Digital sound out dont have major differences.

Cheers.

 

[anm]

I use an appletv old version. Limitations are same as they are on mac, and there is no usb out support, so require spdif dac. OTOH, the interface is great, and can be controlled via ipod touch/ iphone. Even tried one andriod phone app and it worked.

I have been hearing some noise when playing songs with appletv, and I thought I zeroed in on the DAC, but now I am not too sure. I think it may be an issue of sparks due to power plug not fitting power strip well.

 

[spirovious]

Forgot to mention that Foobar 1.0 is best among current version.I tried 9.6, 1.1 & other.
portable install of Foobar 1.0 sounds best.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Surely the sound card is going to matter a vast amount more than the Operating System --- except when it intereferes, which people tell me that W-vista and later does, perhaps.

Does foobar2000 sound better than other players?

No. Most of sound quality differences people hear are placebo effect (at least with real music), as actual differences in produced sound data are below their noise floor (1 or 2 last bits in 16bit samples). foobar2000 has sound processing features such as software resampling or 24bit output on new high-end soundcards, but most of the other mainstream players are capable of doing the same by now.

That's what the Foo Bar people themselves say. Yet... I'd swear that it sounds better than, eg Windows Media Player. Really I would, and did! Combination of placebo effect and MS prejudice in me? Powerful stuff that placebo

windows being the most convenient for file format support (Flac support)

File formats? What has windows got covered that Linux has not? I would suspect nothing, and certainly has no exclusivity over flac.

VLC supports just about anything on all its platforms.

 

[Rockfella]

I sold my 25k home theatre happily for 8k in may 2007 after buying my first PC in Feb 2007. There is no way i will ever listen to music/watch movies from a spinning CD/DVD. HTPC is the way to go since long time now...

 

[Rockfella]

Thanks, very informative post. i am trying JRIvers now as you said it sound better than Foobar in windows 7

Hello!,
I've been listening to PC Audio for the past 2.5 years, when I made the shift well it wasn't great rather not on par with the CD-Player but I pursued it only for convenience sake as I'm very disorganized to keep my cd's in order and it was a major pain for me to keep changing the cd's after a couple tracks and the frustration of finding the cd when I need it.

I believe a Computer transport today will "BETTER" any cd-transport available on the market as long as its executed correctly, I've tried Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux playback.

All 3 operating systems sound very different while windows being the most convenient for file format support (Flac support) mac being the best interface (iTunes) and linux being downright poor for playback tried different variants of MPD but nothing great yet.

For Windows at the moment the best choice would be use Windows 7 with J-River (WASPAI-Event Style output) which makes sure the USB Audio stack is optimized and override's the windows 7 usb stack.

Foobar is only great in Windows XP with ASIO and if your device supports Kernel Streaming then that would be your best option, but on windows 7 it sounds anemic in comparison, J-River betters it in every parameter.

Mac OS X - This is perhaps the easiest to setup no gibberish like asio, kernel streaming and WASAPI just plain plug and play.

iTunes by default is as good as using Foobar on Windows XP but not better than J-River on Windows 7.

Amarra the latest version 2.1.1 is a "Great" player beats default iTunes hands down, but the highs are for a lack of a better word softer / less pronounced but the micro-dynamics (inner details) are superlative with phenomenal depth (layering, front to back presentation)

Pure Music- This is a anti-thesis of Amarra sound its more forward on well recorded material more open but less forgiving, its closer to the character of J-River.

On the whole I think Mac is more analog and easier to listen to but the biggest DOWNSIDE of a Mac setup is no native support for Flac, amarra and pure music can playback flac but its still not convenient, if one wants to use mac then I suggest they shift and maintain their library in AIFF or ALCC I've considered it but not yet pulled the trigger as I download a lot of music too and everything only comes in flac and thereafter to always convert it is quite a pain.

Hope this helps others while building their servers and I promise you its a solution that is on par or better than a CD-Transport.

Equipment used with computer audio;
Weiss Minerva DAC / Firewire Bridge
EMU 1212M (Very colored but fun!!!)
Bow Technologies DAC (i2s>usb)
Various other dacs that were borrowed from friends that were used with the EMU and Weiss.


Thanks,

Best Regards,

Satyam Bachani.

I do almost the same .. though i have a kb/mo.

Excellent & cheap solution;
However, what about the screen ?

My Computer has no mouse / no keyboard / no screen.

All works through a remote desktop - laptop & also through an itouch [currently not interfacing] :sad:

 

[sbfx]

Hi!,

@Arj: Would have liked to meet you on your visit here in Mumbai, perhaps next time!, as for Windows 7 on Mac Mini well yes you could have the best of both worlds having a Mac and a Windows Platform at your disposal.

As for the Ayre I have never heard it but from what I have read its using Gordan's async usb implementation. If I had it my way I would always opt for firewire as USB as a protocol wasn't intended for streaming audio and on the other hand firewire is better suited for the job as the bandwidth available and the stack structure is far superior.

I guess the reason firewire never became the de-facto for computer audio is because it is a uncommon interface for PC's and only a standard for Mac OS X.

@Genopv: I have tried a netbook and a net-top (both Atom procs) and honestly there was no difference in SQ and the downside is its bloody slow!!

@reignofchaos: Do try Kernel Streaming its great IMO it is better than ASIO on windows XP.

@spirovious: Since your already on the Windows 7 platform install the trial version of J-River and use WASAPI Event Style output plugin I'm sure it would better Foobar regardless of version and settings.

@Thad E Ginathom: I dont think the statement is completely true about the card being more important than the OS as one could use a simple i2s>usb interface (Class 1) which means that there are no drivers required and can function directly without any driver support.

The biggest game changer for most sound cards is the driver support!! with every driver change there is a sound change and if you were to use a lesser OS for eg, linux I don't think using the best interface would also make the sound much better.

I dont know who you quoted about foobar being better exactly the same as other players well that is incorrect as to get bit-perfect playback of audio you would need a playback software that bypasses the windows kernel or uses ASIO (Windows XP) as for windows 7 unless WASPAI is not used (which gives the playback application exclusive access to the audio stack) will resample everything.

As for file formats well I agree that windows has no exclusive rights over Flac but when one has a Large library of more than 5,000 songs and wants to integrate it with iTunes on Mac it isn't possible, sure I can select individual songs on Mac and run it but thats not practical. As for Linux I know VLC exists I could even run foobar with WINE installed but its just too nascent a OS for good audio playback.

You try a software called Vortexbox which can be used as a NAS, Ripper and a Player it is based on Fedora but a shit player.


Regards,

Satyam Bachani.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I dont think the statement is completely true about the card being more important than the OS as one could use a simple i2s>usb interface (Class 1) which means that there are no drivers required and can function directly without any driver support.

Analogue out from a really good sound card (internal or external) can blow away a much, much more expensive CD player. I've seen, and heard (and paid for the CD player!) it do it. Of course, one then has to work on silencing the pc.

I dont know who you quoted about foobar being better exactly the same as other players

Then you will be surprised to find out --> here (bottom of the page) (I did say in my post)

and... Me too. I always thought it sounded better. Foobar is one of the few things I miss about having left Windows behind. Still... I have VLC.

 

[sbfx]

@ Rockfella: I hope J-River worked out better for you than foobar! make sure you use WASAPI-Event Style.

Regards,

Satyam Bachani.

 

[sbfx]

Analogue out from a really good sound card (internal or external) can blow away a much, much more expensive CD player. I've seen, and heard (and paid for the CD player!) it do it. Of course, one then has to work on silencing the pc.
Then you will be surprised to find out --> here (bottom of the page) (I did say in my post)

and... Me too. I always thought it sounded better. Foobar is one of the few things I miss about having left Windows behind. Still... I have VLC.

Even if I use analogue out from a SoundCard it will still react to the playback software I use, I have nothing against using the card with analog out or using it just as a transport (digital out) but the OS would change the sound.

Thanks for the link! In effect foobar faq is stating that if I were to use the DirectSound output option its the same as any other player BUT that wont give me Bit-Perfect output, hence I would have to use ASIO, KS or WASPAI which of course other players like VLC or Windows Media Player do not support.

Also when using VLC one does not have the option to maintain a large library, which renders it useless for someone with a large collection + no bit perfect support on windows os. On Mac it does bit-perfect as the core_audio of mac by default betters windows.

Regards,

Satyam Bachani.

 

[spirovious]

MPC-HC with direct sound also sounds better.One may not find minor SQ difference.

 

[Rockfella]

J-River is a not free and i compared it with foobar (without WASAPI) and i found Foobar to be better. Have to figure out how to enable WASAPI though. Its J-River 16mb VS Foobar 7mb and i really like the UI of foobar. maybe wasapi will make a lot of difference... still testing it thanks

@ Rockfella: I hope J-River worked out better for you than foobar! make sure you use WASAPI-Event Style.

Regards,

Satyam Bachani.

 

[square_wave]

Hey Satyam,

It would be great if you could list out the components you used while assembling your Music server PC and the knowledge/Tips you learned while you were at it.

- Components
- how is at all connected

There are a lot of us who are seriousely looking to moving to a pc as a source. Looking to assemble one which looks like an audio component and keep it in the audio rack. I do not want a "typical pc type thingy in my room".

Any pointers ?

 

[cmsajith]

As square_wave said it would be good if you could explain it in detail. I am seriously considering to do a Music PC or to use the current HTPC for music with dual boot based on Win7.