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[bhagwan]

Respected Fm's,
I am of the camp that the biggest factor for great Sound Quality is a Great room & proper/scientific acoustic treatment. Without this as a basic step everything else is secondary and unfortunately the most ignored. Without proper acoustics a $200k system can sound worse than a $2k system. Biggest culprit - overblown, overbearing bass.
Cheers,
Sid

100 % Correct;

However a 'good room' to make will cost you more than a 'set-up' [component cost] !
The Services of a 'professional' acoustician is not cheap & then the materials to be used & the execution etc. All this will set you back 50K US to 100K US $'s at least...
So how many will spend it ? How many have the space for it ?

 

[arj]

Respected Fm's,
I am of the camp that the biggest factor for great Sound Quality is a Great room & proper/scientific acoustic treatment. Without this as a basic step everything else is secondary and unfortunately the most ignored. Without proper acoustics a $200k system can sound worse than a $2k system. Biggest culprit - overblown, overbearing bass.
Cheers,
Sid

very true Sidvee..although if you do manage to get your speaker toe ins and distances well and take care of the 1st reflection points and choose a good seating position you would be around 75% "There" and most of us should be able to achieve it in our rooms.

It is that additional 25% which goes onto the exponential incremental value to cost curve..

Unfortunately from what i could observe, many folks actually achieve only in 30-40% range and then blame the equipment or get into the upgrade spirals.

Proper placements, basic treatment, sensible vibration control and some degree of power supply cleanup is usually very cheap and costs only time and gets you to a pretty good level.

 

[longshanks]

yes, and one more important factor is that if we spend too much time on tweaking the system, treating the room then we tend to listen to the system(not music) and this in turn makes us want to find faults, so the most important factor of listening and enjoying the music that we like starts to become secondary which should not be the case.

 

[arj]

yes, and one more important factor is that if we spend too much time on tweaking the system, treating the room then we tend to listen to the system(not music) and this in turn makes us want to find faults, so the most important factor of listening and enjoying the music that we like starts to become secondary which should not be the case.

Amen and Thumbs up to that
But my reading is that most folks in this forum are more of Gear heads of some form or the other ..hence the majority of threads focussing on eqiupment and ways to get to best sound rather than actual music hyeah:

 

[sidvee]

100 % Correct;

However a 'good room' to make will cost you more than a 'set-up' [component cost] !
The Services of a 'professional' acoustician is not cheap & then the materials to be used & the execution etc. All this will set you back 50K US to 100K US $'s at least...
So how many will spend it ? How many have the space for it ?

Not really.
Acoustical Consulting Services
A rives entry level 1 consultation is $2000, all done via phone and mail.
GIK Acoustics Room Kit Package #2 - GIK AcousticsAcoustic Panels | Bass Traps | Diffusors | GIK Acoustics
A Gik room kit about $800 - so say $2000 delivered.
So for about a total of $4-$5k it is covered except the room. So IMO it is not really expensive relative to cost of a "High End Setup" - maybe the cost of 1 decent component. Also there are various DIY options that cost a fraction of these and basic acoustics like placing bass traps in corners etc is widely discussed on forums etc.
Ok agreed space is expensive - depending on where one lives. As far as who will spend it, I feel any body serious about good sound should, if not they are doing a disservice to themselves and not realizing the true potential of their systems. Worse an absolutely good system will be dismissed for being not good because room acoustics are bad.

BTW I have had a basic acoustic review done for my current room as well as have acquired GIK 244 panels and echo buster panels.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sidvee]

yes, and one more important factor is that if we spend too much time on tweaking the system, treating the room then we tend to listen to the system(not music) and this in turn makes us want to find faults, so the most important factor of listening and enjoying the music that we like starts to become secondary which should not be the case.

I do not disagree, but what is the pleasure of listening to music where bass is overbearing, vocals are muddy, treble is either piercing or non existent and other symptoms of bad acoustics. For that matter how many of us would like to listen to live music/movies in badly designed auditoriums where you walk out with a bad headache?
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

most folks in this forum are more of Gear heads of some form or the other

I think that is true, but doesn't it just mean that, if we do spend money on this stuff, we are more likely to go for the overt tiles and stuff, rather than something that is hidden behind the ordinary decor. Of course, family might not allow, but for those that can, or are even able to have a dedicated listening room, I really think that spending money on this stuff would be every bit as much fun as spending it on milled-aluminium boxes and glowing lights. I'd luuuuurve to have one of those studio-like rooms

For that matter how many of us would like to listen to live music/movies in badly designed auditoriums where you walk out with a bad headache?

I do just that, all too often


.

 

[sidvee]

Unfortunately fro what i could observe, many folks actually achieve only in 30-40% range and then blame the equipment or get into the upgrade spirals.

Proper placements, basic treatment, sensible vibration control and some degree of power supply cleanup is usually very cheap and costs only time and gets you to a pretty good level.

I concur 100% Arj.
cheers,
Sid

 

[Dr.Bass]

Some very interesting read here.
I have not heard many "treated" rooms but I have heard some. Some of the best music I have heard were played in both treated and non treated (no special acoustics treatment but basic carpets, curtains and few diffusers etc) rooms. However, room treatment is a double edged sword which can fire both ways and in 80% of the cases it back fires. And when it does, it is hell. If one compares a bad room versus a badly treated room it becomes obvious. My worst audio experiences were all in badly treated room even though gears were superb. IMO, unless the room is obviously playing devil in some areas of music playback one would be very content with simple room treatment solutions.

yes, and one more important factor is that if we spend too much time on tweaking the system, treating the room then we tend to listen to the system(not music) and this in turn makes us want to find faults, so the most important factor of listening and enjoying the music that we like starts to become secondary which should not be the case.

It is so common to read on forums where people claim to finally sit back and enjoy music after being 25 years in this hobby. It is sad.:indifferent14:

 

[sidvee]

Some very interesting read here.
I have not heard many "treated" rooms but I have heard some. Some of the best music I have heard were played in both treated and non treated (no special acoustics treatment but basic carpets, curtains and few diffusers etc) rooms. However, room treatment is a double edged sword which can fire both ways and in 80% of the cases it back fires. And when it does, it is hell. If one compares a bad room versus a badly treated room it becomes obvious. My worst audio experiences were all in badly treated room even though gears were superb. IMO, unless the room is obviously playing devil in some areas of music playback one would be very content with simple room treatment solutions.

I agree Dr. Bass, overtreatment, bad treatment etc is as bad as no treatment. I would recommend professional opinion first (from proper acoustic experts not pseudo know it all's) and then proceed. Secondly one has to measure the room with a decent calibrated mic and measurement software to plot out the room response and then approach the problematic areas first. Tuning by ear, well I don't know about that one - there is too much variability in that. I suppose in the end one can do minor fine tuning by ear to suit one's taste. After these, acquire and place acoustic treatment, as prescribed. I cringe every time I see bare rooms, loaded to the gills with highend equipment and imagine the acoustic mess that must be going on just as I see padded, over treated rooms which are acoustically dead and can imagine how dull & lifeless the music would sound. And my pet peeve, Large speakers in small rooms. However much one treats the room basic laws of physics cannot be defeated.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

If I set out to "treat" my own room, that is with tiles, absorbing/diffusion, base traps, etc, the works, I'd be about as confident in the result as I would be if I tried to build an amplifier from a heap of components. My knowledge would be about the same: zero.

 

[himadri]

If I set out to "treat" my own room, that is with tiles, absorbing/diffusion, base traps, etc, the works, I'd be about as confident in the result as I would be if I tried to build an amplifier from a heap of components. My knowledge would be about the same: zero.

Exactly, costly room treatments done by experts are as unattainable as true high end gear for average audio lovers and I would think they go hand in hand due to the their higher resolution. Proper speaker placement and minor damping of the room may be enough for midfy systems.
cheers

 

[pdhanwada]

Room treatments like anything else in the world cost from few thousands of rupees to thousands of dollars. I still feel Room treatment is the cheapest compared any of the equipment buys.

Like himadri said, moderate room treatment makes the equipment sound much better. Do we need to spend lots of dollars to acheive this. I am not sure.

I dont understand what is bad room treatment. Need elaboration. There could be overtreament or undertreament. Undertreament is better than no treament.

With regards to overtreatment I am not sure how any body can acheive this. For example if curtail our treatments to first reflection points and Corner traps It is not going to likely on over side may be on the underside.

my thoughts.

 

[longshanks]

I do not disagree, but what is the pleasure of listening to music where bass is overbearing, vocals are muddy, treble is either piercing or non existent and other symptoms of bad acoustics. For that matter how many of us would like to listen to live music/movies in badly designed auditoriums where you walk out with a bad headache?
Cheers,
Sid

yes what you say is correct, overbearing bass and muddy vocals are all bad but my point was when one tends to spend too much time and money on treatment, acoustics,changing the equipment more often then he actually tends to become more interested in the gear than music. I guess a decent setup and required basic room treatment should be OK but music should be always on a higher priority above all of this.

My intent has always been how to make the music that i love since all these years to sound better through my setup and not change the kind of music i listen to suit my system.

Again, this is point was made from my personal experience and i am sure others will have their own take on this.

 

[sidvee]

I dont understand what is bad room treatment. Need elaboration. There could be overtreament or undertreament. Undertreament is better than no treament.
With regards to overtreatment I am not sure how any body can acheive this. For example if curtail our treatments to first reflection points and Corner traps It is not going to likely on over side may be on the underside.
my thoughts.

I guess what is meant by bad/over treatment is treating all the 4 walls with absorption - which will overdamp the room and suck out all high frequencies. There are many instances of this and few acoustic material suppliers in India that I have talked to even recommend this. Also placing too much absorptive furniture, thick curtains, heavy carpet can lead to too much treatment. One has to check the RT60 time for his/her room at listening position after treatment to determine whether or not the room is too dead.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sidvee]

yes what you say is correct, overbearing bass and muddy vocals are all bad but my point was when one tends to spend too much time and money on treatment, acoustics,changing the equipment more often then he actually tends to become more interested in the gear than music.

I see your point longshanks, but for a given room, there will be one optimal room treatment & one optimal listening position. So once that is done, it need not ever be changed or thought about until the room is changed. Whereas depending on if a person is a gear head or a music lover, he can change his equipment as often as he likes or not at all. Anyways I just raised this topic because I was trying to point out what I think is the most important area where one need to consider spending some money and thought for best possible sound. Maybe people do not agree but that is fine.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Room treatments like anything else in the world cost from few thousands of rupees to thousands of dollars. I still feel Room treatment is the cheapest compared any of the equipment buys.

And, it is an investment that needs to be made only once for any particular room.

I dont understand what is bad room treatment. Need elaboration. There could be overtreament or undertreament. Undertreament is better than no treament.

With regards to overtreatment I am not sure how any body can acheive this. For example if curtail our treatments to first reflection points and Corner traps It is not going to likely on over side may be on the underside.

I'm told is not a good idea to make a room too dead. Your hifi might not sound at its best in an anechoic chamber!

 

[Staxxx]

I brought back some absorbers and diffusors that were measured and set up for my audio room abroad. The space here is much smaller and the ceilings more than a meter lower. I have found that the most effective for me have been diffusors on the wall behind and between the speakers; absorbers at the first reflection point and perhaps something behind the listener seat.....any more and the speakers begin to draw attention to themselves.

So I ended up lifting my audio chair off the ground with one of the extra diffusors!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Nice.

Of course... improvisation is possible

 

[Dr.Bass]

I dont understand what is bad room treatment. Need elaboration. There could be overtreament or undertreament. Undertreament is better than no treament.

Well, over and under treatment is a quantitative description whereas good and bad treatment is qualitative. Qualitatively one can under or over damp a room, one can alter the frequency response of the room, one can alter the way the soundstage is presented in the room, bass overhang, treble ringing etc are all various things that can happen in the room due to treatment.

IMO, badly treated room far far worse than any average living/listening room which is untreated. At least for a normal untreated room one has the liberty to choose equipments which suit the room conditions.