Playback designs

[sidvee]

I was doing some more research on PBD MPD3 DAC. As of now I am concerned with these:

Posted by an user on another forum:"I Have a problem with my playback mpd 3. Recently i noted that of i stop the playing i hear clearly and consistentely a rustling which increase when I raise the volume"

Posted by Andreas Koch of PBD on another forum, in response to few users reporting the above noise:
"Every D/A converter requires an analog low-pass filter at its output. This is to get rid of high frequency noise that is not correlated with the music signal. There are many different ways for how to design this filter. Most manufacturer make this filter very steep or sharp to minimize the remaining noise and to achieve best measurements. However, there is a price to be paid: the steeper this filter is, the more the sonic performance (i.e. musicality) is impacted.
Since the noise is not correlated to the music signal, it is like listening to music with your window open when you might hear a little the wind outside. Uncorrelated noise does not distract from listening. Therefore, we have designed our filter not to minimize this noise, but rather to optimize the sonic performance with the lowest possible noise and without impacting the listening experience. So now if you stop playing music and turn the volume up you can hear more noise with our converter than with others. That is normal and was designed to optimize the sonic performance."

Actually quite a few users have reported this noise, and some feel it is detrimental to overall noise floor levels. I am quite sensitive to noise floor of my system, so this is quite alarming.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Dr.Bass]

Sidvee, as far as I know, even Audio Note DACs are filter less, I think they have absolutely no filter (I may be wrong), but their concept is something similar to what you have mentioned and they sound absolutely fabulous, especially the higher end ones.

 

[sidvee]

Sidvee, as far as I know, even Audio Note DACs are filter less, I think they have absolutely no filter (I may be wrong), but their concept is something similar to what you have mentioned and they sound absolutely fabulous, especially the higher end ones.

Thanks Dr. Bass. The concern I have here is that the MPD5 (higher end DAC) has no reported noise floor issues, however the 3 does. IMO if one is spending $7000 for a DAC then it should have very little self induced noise notwithstanding the absence or presence of a signal. What did you feel about the noise level in the AN equipment?
Cheers,
Sid

 

[jai1611]

AFAIK, filters only kick in after 20khz. The absence of one shouldn't result in audible noise

 

[Dr.Bass]

Thanks Dr. Bass. The concern I have here is that the MPD5 (higher end DAC) has no reported noise floor issues, however the 3 does. IMO if one is spending $7000 for a DAC then it should have very little self induced noise notwithstanding the absence or presence of a signal. What did you feel about the noise level in the AN equipment?
Cheers,
Sid

Hi Sid,
I didnt hear any such spurious noise with Audio Note. They use NOS dac from Analog Devices. Their general signature is tad warm but as you go higher up in the chain you gain tremendous resolution and dynamics. From their DAC 3.1 and above is serious stuff. 4.1 is considered to be sweet spot for people looking for higher-end players. I have heard even the 5.1 which is their highest model and it was sparkling clean!!:licklips:

 

[arj]

Sidvee, from what i read it appears the choice is between higher noise floor Vs more organic sound.. Unless you hear it once there is no way you will know how loud this is.

the problem below seems to be only when the volume is increased (is there a volume control ? ) that may not be very serious as its not something done very often and is not a defect,

 

[sidvee]

Sidvee, from what i read it appears the choice is between higher noise floor Vs more organic sound.. Unless you hear it once there is no way you will know how loud this is.

the problem below seems to be only when the volume is increased (is there a volume control ? ) that may not be very serious as its not something done very often and is not a defect,

I hear you Arj, but there is no way to test one in my system to see if the noise issue (if at all it is system related - gain etc) exists. Yes, if I were to audition one in a different setup the noise may not be there, but the doubt, about its synergy with my system, would nag me enough not to consider one. I do not believe there is a volume control on the unit (not enough info. on their website), and what I understand, is that when the overall system volume is increased without a signal playing then the noise appears in the speakers - like a hiss/hum or like having a bad tube in tube equipment. Anyways it appears to be a deal breaker for me at this point (my system noise floor is just about acceptable right now with the Lamm Pre though it was lower with the ARC26, however the Lamm sounds superb so I have already compromised) - unless the dealer lends me one for home audition - which is not likely to happen as I have been led to believe. At least for me it is too much of a gamble with 4lacs at stake. I am beginning to consider other options now.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

AFAIK, filters only kick in after 20khz. The absence of one shouldn't result in audible noise

As I understand it ...No! Wait! I don't understand it! :lol:

But... I believe that 44.1khz playback requires a filter just above 20K because there are artifacts that do affect what we hear. Come to think of it... Actually, isn't this filter applied at the recording end? As the filtering is related to the sampling process, it would, of course, have to differ with the sample rate. It would be foolish filtering hi-res files at 20k: that would mean we wouldn't be able to hear all the stuff that we can't hear anyway (...but which, interesting research shows, seems to affect our brains even though we can't "hear" it. Search this forum for info on that.)

The usual stuff applies about specs: they may or may not be right, and they may or may not mean anything, and mostly we do not buy by them but ...every DAC or audio interface is going to have a quoted SNR. If you can turn the volume up and hear rustling, it would suggest that the SNR of the device is pretty poor. I just maxed the volume on the speakers connected to my 180 interface, with no signal, and got ... silence. And if I started adding zeros to the price, I'd expect even more silence! And I cewrtainly would not be happy with words to the effect of, yeah, there is noise, but don't worry about it because the music sounds better

Actually, I played some vinyl yesterday, for the first time in a long time. First thing was struggling with massive hum on one channel --- an earth wire had fallen off and I'd forgotten about its need. Then there was low-frequency rumble that I don't remember from last time. It's true, I can't notice the rumble when the music is playing, so it could be said to make no difference. But it does make a difference --- because it annoys me and it shouldn't be there!

 

[bhagwan]

This is the DAC that should not be purchased :-

Playback Designs MPS-3 CD Player/DAC | AudioStream

This is the CD Player version - I think - but I had the pure DAC in mind..

 

[Amp_Nut]

bhagwan said:

This is the DAC that should not be purchased :-

Can you please elaborate ?

The site that you have referred to has given it a Rave review... better than the Da Vinci in some aspects !!

 

[bhagwan]

bhagwan said:

Can you please elaborate ?

The site that you have referred to has given it a Rave review... better than the Da Vinci in some aspects !!

I like the 5 & do not like the 3
So, I suggest PD all the way - but only in case of the 5 - that is all.

I have not heard the Da Vinci as yet, so will only comment on that in June, 2013..
:licklips:

 

[Amp_Nut]

sidvee, I am chiming in a bit late in this thread. I have personally heard the PD-5 and its a Superb DAC in most aspects. ( I do not know of any Hi Fi Product, that is Superb in ALL aspects )

You are upgrading from an Ayon, which is certainly not an entry level machine !

Hence could you please elaborate on :

1. What you liked in the Ayon

2. What extra / improvement you are looking for in your new DAC ?

Earlier in this thread someone has recommended the BADA, EMM & Empirical Audio DACs. I have heard all three. They all belong to the General Category of "relaxed and detailed" sound, but are not in the last word in PRAT and Slam. ( IMHO Ofcourse ! ) Ofcourse they are all SUPERB DACs, but you need to be clear what floats your boat ...

 

[sidvee]

Hence could you please elaborate on :

1. What you liked in the Ayon

2. What extra / improvement you are looking for in your new DAC ?

Ofcourse they are all SUPERB DACs, but you need to be clear what floats your boat ...

Hello Amp_Nut,
My description of the Ayon sound is clear & detailed without being cold, clinical, and very analog sounding. I am simply looking for more of this type of a sound. I tried one high end Pro Dac (priced at $5k), but though I felt it resolved better it lost some of the warmth and erred towards the cool side of neutral. Anyways I am almost set on Ayon Skylla II, simply because I know the sound, secondly I will be getting a superb Pre thrown in (which some users in other forums have compared to the ARC ref3) and lastly because of the noise issues in the PBD that I mentioned earlier on.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[bhagwan]

Anyways I am almost set on Ayon Skylla II, simply because I know the sound, secondly I will be getting a superb Pre thrown in
Sid

Good Call !

All the Best;

I owned the 1 & the 2 can only have gotten better.

Enjoy.

:clapping:

 

[Amp_Nut]

My description of the Ayon sound is clear & detailed without being cold, clinical, and very analog sounding. I am simply looking for more of this type of a sound.

Thanks for the feedback. If this is what you are looking for, the Playback Designs PBD-5 will give it to you in SPADES. It also takes away the Ayon's Bass bloat and replaces it with a Lovely deep bass, superb extended highs that are never etched, Superb Sound stage, air & image localisation.

Frankly its the Ayon taken up atleast 2 levels ( I have heard the Ayon -1).

The PBD-5 has NO Background noise / hiss, it is Dead silent with a cark black background, which makes each note that much clearer, emerging and decaying into a blackness.

( The Background noise that you say someone has heard sound like a flaw in that piece. NO solid state DAC will have an audible background hiss, leave aside one at this price point and performance level).

The PBD-5 if available as Pre owned at R 3.5L is worth considering seriously.

If you plan to use it primarily via a computer USB, I would recommend the Empirical Audio USB to SPDIF converter ... expensive but it is just SUPERB. Yes, I have heard it.

Alternately stay with SPDIF with the PBD-5, and try out different Digital cables, to suit yr system. The sound changes quite dramatically, the DAC is that revealing. Frankly I found it sounded best with a Cheap Video RCA to RCA ! LOL !

The PBD-5 is a BIG investment but it will Deliver exactly what you are looking for.

 

[Amp_Nut]

Sidvee, here are my notes on listening to the PBD-5 DAC ( I had sent these to a friend)

I used it in my system, to in a Direct A/B comparison with my ElectroCompaniet UP-1 CD Player ( Current List Euro 7500).

All my listening was done via the SPDIF .( You need the Remote to switch between various digital inputs).


Both the DAC and my CD player were fed with Identical Transparent Audio MM Power cables. I Hate on the fly A/b comparisions. Hence I swapped my Argento Interconnects between the CD player and DAC when comparing. Hence both DAC & CD player received identical Cables and interconnects.

The PBD-5 is clearly a SUPERB DAC.
It easily outperformed my CD player in terms of Imaging & Resolution. The extreme HF was slightly rolled off. That gave the sound a smoother Flow and made it more "Analog like."

The improved resolution seemed to remove a layer of 'smoke' or 'haze' that is spread throughout the image created by my CD player. Each instrument / singer was better localised by the DAC. The improved resolution brought out textures in instruments more easily, without being "In your face."

The DAC's sound stage was more distant and significantly deeper than what my CD player creates.

The DAC was one of the few, rare sources that delivered DEEP bass, on par with my CD player.

Male and female voices were reproduced more beguiling than my CD Player. Dido - Safe Trip Home highlighted the DAC Superbly. It has a lovely, close miked female vocal with a lot of accompaniment, specially low level but deep and sustained bass tones. I have found many systems tripping up on this. Either the complex arrangement gets too complex to handle, or the sustained Bass tones cause room resonance. The PBD-5 rendered this music exceptionally well, with Tons of detail and a smooth unforced sound.

To conclude, the DAC has a superb, relaxed sound. To my ears its the best DAC sound I have heard, in many aspects.

This was my personal, unsolicited opinion, based on a listen in my own system, with which I am very familar, including its HF tizzness.

All the best in your quest.

 

[sidvee]

Thanks for the feedback. If this is what you are looking for, the Playback Designs PBD-5 will give it to you in SPADES.

Thanks Amp_Nut, but my budget does not extend to the PBD-5. Indian pricing is at 7.0 lac.

Frankly its the Ayon taken up atleast 2 levels ( I have heard the Ayon -1).

Have you heard the Skylla? Even the 2s is an upgrade over the 1 as I had both the Cd1s and now the 2s. And the skylla has the same dac as the Cd5s which all the reviewers are gushing over.

( The Background noise that you say someone has heard sound like a flaw in that piece. NO solid state DAC will have an audible background hiss, leave aside one at this price point and performance level).

The background noise that other users in other forums heard is from the MPD 3, not the 5. Secondly it was admitted by Play Back Designs principal Adreas Koch himself that this noise is present (see my post on this in this thread), so it is not a one off defect but actual design intent.

The PBD-5 if available as Pre owned at R 3.5L is worth considering seriously.

One PBD-5 is available in India from a gentleman, Manjyot, from Amritsar. I contacted him via PM on Audiogon where he is a member, and his unit is 2 years old without the external USB connection which I will have to buy separately from PBD. Also some of the firmware needs to be upgraded, which as I understand is no big deal. I am considering this but at the same time for a little more I can get a brand new Skylla II. So I will decide based on this.

If you plan to use it primarily via a computer USB, I would recommend the Empirical Audio USB to SPDIF converter ... expensive but it is just SUPERB. Yes, I have heard it.

I am using the M2tech Hiface evo and am happy with it. It is a $500 unit. I am also planning to get the Empricial audio off-ramp later this year, but some of my friends who have heard both do not feel that the improvement is worth the $1300 price of the off-ramp.

Cheers,
Sid

 

[IndianEars]

Hi Sidvee,

Thanks for your detailed feedback.

1. Yes, I was referring to purchasing the PBD-5 pre owned, so it would be Cheaper than the Skylla that you are exploring.

Ofcourse you should take your own call.

Yes, you are correct the PBD-5 needs an external USB interface ( priced similar to the Off Ramp. The Playback External USB does DSD . I have not heard it.

The Off Ramp does Not do DSD.

Do your friends have a revealing enough system on which they compared the M2Tech and Empirical ?

On the Off ramp sound quality, I stand my ground....

Ofcourse YMMV

 

[sidvee]

Do your friends have a revealing enough system on which they compared the M2Tech and Empirical ?

Confused! are you the same person as Amp_nut. My friend, who heard about 4 different usb to coax converters, and gave me some input - amongst others, is a US based audio dealer, whom I used to frequent. He is currently one of the mid-west dealers for Magico. So is his system revealing enough? Not sure, but as a high end audio dealer in the US for over 2 decades I do trust his ears. Anyways as I stated earlier, I am planning to buy an off ramp on a trip to US later this year and will do my own comparison. I believe that regardless of however high end one's system is or how many digits it costs, there is no substitute to listening in one's own room and system, a luxury that unfortunately, does not exist for us in Hyderabad.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[IndianEars]

Guys, as i have mentioned elsewhere, Amp_Nut = IndianEars on this forum.

I had forgotten my Amp_Nut password, and so registered later under the IndiaEars Monicker.

Also as mention on the forum ( since I have often been addressed by my personal name, my "Real' nmame is Dinyar, but I am NOT the 'Dinyaar' on this forum, whom I have not met.

So to summarise:

Amp_Nut = IndianEars = Dinyar But NOT = Dinyaar !