Power cables - am bewildered!

[keith_correa]

It's not a perfect world, yet.

The bling-bling believers are suspiciously quiet here, and there are other areas in which some sort of sane conclusion is impossible because the whole basis is so absurd.

But hey, let's enjoy it while it lasts hyeah:

Amen to that. BTW, what "other" areas?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The clue is in why I wouldn't buy a Dragonfly DAC from Audioquest! :lol:

Not that I need cables anyway, but if I look at a cable manufacturer's site, I check out if they sell ethernet cables, and, if they do, what they say about them and how much they charge for them. Say, for example, I wanted a coax S/PDIF cable. Although I'd be naturally suspicious of of bling-bling materials and high prices, it is not a format I've ever really used, whereas I've known network cables for over twenty years.

It may yet be shown that something travels through the insulation, or the shield, that somehow, against all odds, manages to affect the audio section of a PC, but it is soooo unlikely that, if it does, we can say, ok, audio really does work by voodoo after all.

So, whilst I can personally deny and thoroughly doubt expensive USB and Firewire cables, I can admit they are (when connected to a DAC), at least within the realms of audio data and protocols, whereas a network cable is not, and no audio company has any right to pretend that they are, let alone charge high prices for blinged up ones. If a company does that, I am loathe to trust them at all.

By the way, there was a link in this thread that lead, either directly or very nearly, to a review of Audioquest network leads. Yes, the reviewer heard a difference. In a page or two of it shouldn't, it can't, but it did, how can that be possible, somehow it didn't occur to him to ask a network engineer.

It's a sore point, and you now know how to wind me up! If it is a dull week on HiFiVision, start a thread on hifi network cables, or other completely non-audio PC components or methodology: it'll always get me going . I know I shouldn't, but...

:lol:

 

[keith_correa]

Then, IMO, it is a narrow PoV and approach to take and is akin to throwing out the baby along with the bathwater.

Edit: Removed a word that probably was harsh. Am not being judgemental here but merely stating my opinion.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yep, you are not the first person to say that. It is a valid point of view. However, there are lots of cable companies, so I feel justified in making a measure of what I perceive to be a company's ethics and business model, and, if I don't like it, going elsewhere. It's just a measure, and only one, like, for instance, looking at whether the tables in a restaurant are clean before you give their food a chance.

If I perceive a company to be, knowingly or not, dishonest, is it not fair enough that I prefer not to deal with them?

There is another cable company I would never deal with. It is known for its fancy packing, very high dealer markups ---and litigious response to its critics. So I'd better not mention the name :lol:. That one has been on my personal list of unapproved suppliers for a long time.

I also don't chose to wear a fashion statement on my ears (or my spectacles, tee shirt etc). Who knows, the product might be good --- but there are plenty of other choices. That a manufacturer's name has been associated with audio for a few decades is hardly a cast-iron guarantee, but it seems like a better starting point.

When it comes to a pen-drive-format DAC, there are also other choices, and other names I'd rather see about my house. A big difference here, though, is that when it comes to such a thing, I am interested in the subjective experiences, reviews, etc, not only of my own, but of others too.

It's just my personal buying policy/preferences. I don't even claim to be consistent: If I really wanted a Dragonfly, then yes, I'd buy one, but I do not think that it offers anything unique or competition beating, so it is easy not to.

There are lots and lots of companies, making or selling all kinds of products, that if we dig into their practices or their history, we might be put off dealing with them: there are a very, very few that I take the trouble to actually avoid. Admittedly, not much effort is required; Microsoft is probably the hardest work, and, even there, I shall not force a Linux or Android laptop or tablet on my wife.

 

[jls001]

Keith you have knack of opening such threads

@keith: the Morale Officer of HFV asks if you can make such threads a monthly feature?

 

[keith_correa]

@keith: the Morale Officer of HFV asks if you can make such threads a monthly feature?

Too stressful

 

[denom]

Thad's fav cable co seems to be the current hot flavour :lol:

The Cable Guy - Interview with William Low, CEO, AudioQuest

 

[Shivam]

Thad's fav cable co seems to be the current hot flavour :lol:

The Cable Guy - Interview with William Low, CEO, AudioQuest

He actually said it in the interview -
Honestly, AudioQuest is a marketing company, not an engineering company.

 

[keith_correa]

He actually said it in the interview -
Honestly, AudioQuest is a marketing company, not an engineering company.

Please read what he said after the statement that you copied and pasted here. In isolation, the sentence which you copied, reads differently and conveys a totally different meaning from what he wanted to convey. Am copying the statements preceding/following that statement in all fairness to William Low:

Marketing and communicating is exactly what I am doing today (laughs). I am trying to shine a light on things that you might already know, but from different angles. Honestly, AudioQuest is a marketing company, not an engineering company. We dont design products first and then decide what to do with them. The only products we design are the ones that we want to sell in a store and which add value to the customer's system. This is an essence of marketing. And I am the art director, and, although, I dont write everything (laughs), I do help and end up rewriting half the things that are written for me.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Still, probably not a man I'd want to buy a cable from, in much the same way as I would not want to buy an operating system from Mr Gates/Bullmer.

As I say: we have a choice.

 

[keith_correa]

My take:
No matter what my perception of a person/company is, I will not let my judgemental prejudice/principle dictate my buying from that company/person. If in my opinion the product does what it claims to do, at a fair [in my opinion] price, and having no equivalent competition, I will buy it anyway. But that's only me.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

That might be me too, if there was just one product from just one company. I'm not sufficiently ethics-driven to go without as a matter of principle.

having no equivalent competition

But where there is a wide choice, freely available: who will you buy from then? A company that you perceive to be dishonest or lacking in some major way, or someone that you perceive to be straight and thoroughly decent? For me that is what is called a no-brainer, and it is why my next cable order will go to Blue Jeans or one of the other companies with similar practices.

In fact, if there is a cable without any equivalent competition, that would tend to increase my suspicion that it is a shere invention of the marketing department.

Let me be blunt: a company selling hifi network leads, with the claims and half-truths you can see on the web page, is dishonest. This is not a borderline case.

Do your remember (Maybe it was '95 or a little later)...

Microsoft makes everything you do easier

One of the biggest marketing lies ever. And that went through my head so many times when trying to solve some ridiculous problem. But the battle was lost: I could, and did, keep MS out of the server room, but, as far as the desktop was concerned, at that time I had no choice.

 

[Shivam]

I am using generic power cables (that come with desktop computers) for some of my components. Should I be thinking of changing them even if I find my system's sound good?

I got lost in this thread trying to solve this query of mine.

 

[shanmune]

I am using generic power cables (that come with desktop computers) for some of my components. Should I be thinking of changing them even if I find my system's sound good?

I got lost in this thread trying to solve this query of mine.

Even I am using the power cables that came along with my desktop computer.
The reason was that the stock power cord was not compatible with the Indian socket. So even I am planning to change it, but thinking of taking a DIY route.

 

[shanmune]

The most important point that has been concluded or clarified is about the need of good power cords. Again, "Good" means it is left to the individual's definition . So we all (or few of us) conclude that the power cords may play a role if the power supply unit of the audio component is not well designed.

My question is - How does a good power cable act even as a band-aid or a work around solution for systems without well designed power supply unit ? As far as what I learnt from this thread, a good cable ( at least the twisted one) can only suppress the "radiated EMI", but not the garbage coming in from the main AC power socket. Kanwar has explained how that incoming garbage can impact the power supply unit. So my understanding is - The only benefit we can see with a good power cord is the suppression of "radiated emi" and that suppression of the emi brings out good for the audio component with ordinary power supply units. So irrespective of the cable quality, the input garbage is still a problem. Is this a safe and more appropriate conclusion one can make ?

 

[Shivam]

Now to find some good twisted power cables with Indian plug on one end.

 

[jls001]

Again, "Good" means it is left to the individual's definition .

Good would mean:
1) wire gauge is sufficient to supply the required current without heating up. If a cable heats up, it is a sure sign that it is carrying more current than what it ought to be carrying (assuming that there isn't sparking anywhere - which is infinitely more dangerous). Prolonged heat leads to gradual breakdown of the insulation. In extreme cases, it can lead to fire.

If you are using a power cord that came with your computer, you can check the power ratings of your computer. Let's assume 400 Watts is the SMPS rating. So the cable will be safe for 400 W. Now, check how much power is used by the device which this power cord is powering. If it's below 400W, you ought to be safe. Of course this considers only one parameter (see below points).

2) preferably twisted, for reasons already covered by Kanwar.

3) proper contacts - more than the cable's connector pins per se, the culprit is often the poorly designed contact within the sockets that does not tightly grip the pins. Any looseness in electrical contact leads to current jumping from the source to the nearest conducting body. This is sparking, and very dangerous. Indian 3-pin round pin-sockets standard is very bad in my personal opinion. Flat pins as used in American and British pins are better as the spring action of the socket conductors can have firmer grip than round conductors. Round holes need close tolerances (of both pin and hole) to make proper contacts. More often than not, a tight fit is wanting.

4) preferably shielded, so that it doesn't suffer more induced pollution from radiated emissions which may be present in the surrounding.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Even I am using the power cables that came along with my desktop computer.
The reason was that the stock power cord was not compatible with the Indian socket. So even I am planning to change it, but thinking of taking a DIY route.

Moulded-on plugs can always be chopped off. The cable can then be stripped/cut to suitable lengths for attaching a different plug, ie a decent Indian plug (MK? Crabtree?).

I'm willing to be disillusioned on this, but I have always regarded the leads that come with PCs or PC power supplies as pretty decent, especially if they come with a hefty-rating power supply.

jls001, I really agree with what you say about contacts and sockets. In my house I have found the MK "International" sockets very bad and have replaced them with Indian 15-amp + UK/SIngapore-sourced adapters for UK-3-pin. However, Capt Rajesh is using the same MK sockets and has no problem with them. I think my builder got a duff lot cheap!

 

[magma]

Good would mean:
1) wire gauge is sufficient to supply the required current without heating up. If a cable heats up, it is a sure sign that it is carrying more current than what it ought to be carrying (assuming that there isn't sparking anywhere - which is infinitely more dangerous). Prolonged heat leads to gradual breakdown of the insulation. In extreme cases, it can lead to fire.

If you are using a power cord that came with your computer, you can check the power ratings of your computer. Let's assume 400 Watts is the SMPS rating. So the cable will be safe for 400 W. Now, check how much power is used by the device which this power cord is powering. If it's below 400W, you ought to be safe. Of course this considers only one parameter (see below points).

2) preferably twisted, for reasons already covered by Kanwar.

3) proper contacts - more than the cable's connector pins per se, the culprit is often the poorly designed contact within the sockets that does not tightly grip the pins. Any looseness in electrical contact leads to current jumping from the source to the nearest conducting body. This is sparking, and very dangerous. Indian 3-pin round pin-sockets standard is very bad in my personal opinion. Flat pins as used in American and British pins are better as the spring action of the socket conductors can have firmer grip than round conductors. Round holes need close tolerances (of both pin and hole) to make proper contacts. More often than not, a tight fit is wanting.

4) preferably shielded, so that it doesn't suffer more induced pollution from radiated emissions which may be present in the surrounding.

^^
well said


In point 3 you should also add the following
The so called INTERNATIONAL / universal plug sockets are actaully the worst contacts
Jack of all but king of none
Nor do they provide a tight fit on indian plugs nor do they do so for the american ones
Theyve been invented just for convenience
Youre better off using a pure indian plug in a pure indian socket
Euro Schuko would be the best followed by american followed by indian

Unfortunately all power strips today use these "international" sockets

Also research needs to be done on wire gauge
specs of wore gauge are highly misleading

1.5mm sq may be rated to carry a certain current
But the entire rating changes once you say you have to carry it over 1-2 meters
Many times ratings are only assumed point to point
No one accounts for losses

Refer many german catalogues
see how their cable companies do the rating

I would not trust anything less than 2.5mm/ sqaure for a power amp
You will be surprised how many cable companies are operating at 1.5

Why dont memebrs borrow some good cables from other members
use them for a week
and just hear the difference ( if any - debatable )

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

In point 3 you should also add the following
The so called INTERNATIONAL / universal plug sockets are actaully the worst contacts
Jack of all but king of none
Nor do they provide a tight fit on indian plugs nor do they do so for the american ones
Theyve been invented just for convenience
Youre better off using a pure indian plug in a pure indian socket
Euro Schuko would be the best followed by american followed by indian

That is exactly my experience. When I have opened them up to tighten the contacts, I find that one does not get the same area of contact on either round or UK-flat pins.

Unfortunately all power strips today use these "international" sockets

I have a stock of power strips from UK. Some of them were amazingly cheap, but they still have a proper grip on UK plugs. I use Indian multi-national strips for occasional convenience only. Otherwise I buy, even adapters, in Singapore