Power cords

[Thad E Ginathom]

If these instruments can differentiate between two Dacs, then surely it will be able to tell the differences between any cablepower cords or whatever

Now if it cannot, will you buy one Dac over the other even if it sounds different to your ears ?

I won't measure anything when I go buying. I may not even look at the specs, which are probably written by the marketing department anyway. But I'll continue to argue that there is no voodoo to electonics, and if something sounds different to our coarse listening instruments, our ears, it must, if anybody wants to measure it, be measurable ...because, if not, then music is not recordable in the first place. So we can throw out all our kit!

 

[moktan]

our coarse listening instruments, our ears....

If an engineer were to duplicate its (the ears) function, he would have to compress into approximately one cubic inch a sound system that included an impedance matcher, a wide-range mechanical analyzer, a mobile relay-and-amplification unit, a multichannel transducer to convert mechanical energy to electrical energy, a system to maintain a delicate hydraulic balance, and an internal two-way communications system. Even if he could perform this miracle of miniaturization, he probably could not hope to match the ears performance.Sound and Hearing, by S. S. Stevens, Fred Warshofsky

 

[square_wave]

I won't measure anything when I go buying. I may not even look at the specs, which are probably written by the marketing department anyway. But I'll continue to argue that there is no voodoo to electonics, and if something sounds different to our coarse listening instruments, our ears, it must, if anybody wants to measure it, be measurable ...because, if not, then music is not recordable in the first place. So we can throw out all our kit!

Thank you Thad.

From my experience, there are many minor (but very important) factors with many hi-end gear which separates the men from the boys.

For example, once we compared two dacs. Both had identical resolution. The details from each of the dacs were the same. But one DAC was more fluent and coherent than the other. It is like you can clearly make out the intention of the composer when you plug in this dac. The music is clearly communicated and your senses were constantly engaged by this dac. The other one was as detailed but clearly very boring. Boring is the right word since the Dac never engaged us. For me this is a wrong design.

This was like comparing a phase and time coherent loudspeaker with one which was not.

To me the ear / brain combination can perceive many things. For folks like me, we do not have the time to waste looking for some instruments which will validate all this. Most folks into all this are not fools either. None will waste their time or energy if it does not make any difference. Please do some comparisons yourself and post your hands on experiences here if you can. It will help all of us.

 

[ajay124]

Dr.Bass

Male connectors from brands like Crabtree, Anchor, MX are available in most shops, but where can I source the female connectors from?

Speed, tonality, coloration, lushness. You are obviously a 'believer' in the power of cables and connectors. I would appreciate a more detailed post/posts about various brands of connectors and cables. Performance, Price and Where To Buy.

2012 is 'alleged' to be the year when a global recession could potentially puncture many bubbles. I am playing safe and have decided to pare down my spending to the bare minimum and lie low until the storm clouds have cleared up. Therefore a few budget options would be very welcome

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

If an engineer were to duplicate its (the ears) function, he would have to compress into approximately one cubic inch a sound system that included an impedance matcher, a wide-range mechanical analyzer, a mobile relay-and-amplification unit, a multichannel transducer to convert mechanical energy to electrical energy, a system to maintain a delicate hydraulic balance, and an internal two-way communications system. Even if he could perform this miracle of miniaturization, he probably could not hope to match the ears performance.Sound and Hearing, by S. S. Stevens, Fred Warshofsky

... listening to something that was captured and recorded by electro-mechanical devices and is being played back by electro-mechanical devices.

For example, once we compared two dacs. Both had identical resolution. The details from each of the dacs were the same. But one DAC was more fluent and coherent than the other. It is like you can clearly make out the intention of the composer when you plug in this dac. The music is clearly communicated and your senses were constantly engaged by this dac. The other one was as detailed but clearly very boring. Boring is the right word since the Dac never engaged us. For me this is a wrong design.

In conversations like this, I think we sometimes forget what we are talking, or arguing about. I know I do.

I might argue that a digital signal is a digital signal --- but I will never even attempt to argue that the the analogue side of two DACS is going to be identical, in fact, I'd be surprised if they were!

What you say, eg, making out the intention of the composer, is very subjective. Please note that I am not saying that you are wrong, but others, hearing the same difference, might agree, disagree, or use different words. It is to do with the magical process that goes on inside our heads when we listen to music. However, before any of that happens, there must have been an objective difference. When we go to the shop, even less so, when we just want to absorb the music, it is not the objective difference represented in numerals or squiggles, that matters to us: it is our experience.

What then, when a group of people say, for instance, that this piece of wire makes a difference, and another group say that that is physically and technically impossible?

--- we can have no interest in discussing it, and each goes their way

--- we can seek something that is not subjective to try to further the matter.

Denying that the latter is even possible seems, to me, the one stance that has no merit.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Ajay, the female part was nothing special, I got some for Rs.60 each at one of the electronics spare shop in Bangalore (SP Road). Jochen was once mentioning that he can get very good quality plugs (male and female) from Germany for about Rs.300 each. I never got one through him yet. Another very good plug is Supra (made in sweden). Costs about $20 each, copper with gold plating. Havent been able to try it.

Ajay, a good wire (finolex, lapp, volex, neotech, acoutic revive 4030) terminated with a high quality plug (oyaide, furutech copper etc) will give you much better results than buying a ready-made power cord which costs say $200 - $300. The point is how much do you want to spend. An Oyaide P-004/C-004 will set you back by $200+ (unless you get a very good deal on a used pair) and then the cost of a good cable, say $30. If you are serious about giving it a good try, I would suggest you take this route because it will give you a very good idea about what a top quality connector sounds like and what are your goals to attain from a power cord. Obviously a better cable with the same Oyaide connector will sound even better. However, when you are trying diy and trying to achieve maximum mileage for a reasonable sum, I think connectors like these have the maximum impact. If you plan to invest more, say $400 and above then you can PM me, I can suggest you some very good branded power cords based on what you are trying to achieve.

Whether I am a believer of power cord or not ? I believe power cord is the most important cable in the chain, much more than interconnects and speaker cables. Since it is an expensive affair giving the best power cords to each equipment so it normally takes time to do it all. Also finding a suitable power cord (which aligns with your sonic goals) for each equipment is an exercise which needs a lot of research and some trial.

 

[hifiashok]

Ajay, the female part was nothing special, I got some for Rs.60 each at one of the electronics spare shop in Bangalore (SP Road). Jochen was once mentioning that he can get very good quality plugs (male and female) from Germany for about Rs.300 each. I never got one through him yet. Another very good plug is Supra (made in sweden). Costs about $20 each, copper with gold plating. Havent been able to try it.

Ajay, a good wire (finolex, lapp, volex, neotech, acoutic revive 4030) terminated with a high quality plug (oyaide, furutech copper etc) will give you much better results than buying a ready-made power cord which costs say $200 - $300. The point is how much do you want to spend. An Oyaide P-004/C-004 will set you back by $200+ (unless you get a very good deal on a used pair) and then the cost of a good cable, say $30. If you are serious about giving it a good try, I would suggest you take this route because it will give you a very good idea about what a top quality connector sounds like and what are your goals to attain from a power cord. Obviously a better cable with the same Oyaide connector will sound even better. However, when you are trying diy and trying to achieve maximum mileage for a reasonable sum, I think connectors like these have the maximum impact. If you plan to invest more, say $400 and above then you can PM me, I can suggest you some very good branded power cords based on what you are trying to achieve.

Whether I am a believer of power cord or not ? I believe power cord is the most important cable in the chain, much more than interconnects and speaker cables. Since it is an expensive affair giving the best power cords to each equipment so it normally takes time to do it all. Also finding a suitable power cord (which aligns with your sonic goals) for each equipment is an exercise which needs a lot of research and some trial.

now, i find this post very, very contradictory. if my understanding of the a/m is correct, are u saying (in your experience) the male needs to be of the high/highest possible quality and the female can be anything!!?!! this only goes in line with the other relevant question on what is the quality upto the walwart (or the DP, or the breaker, etc.), if we only change the last mile (meter)!

i wud assume all aspects are important, also assuming (power) cables do make a sizable (discernible) difference. so, the wire, the male, the female, the way the wire is terminated onto the male, ditto for the female/walwart, soldered, etc. just as an example, if you put in a 'good quality' male into a female that is 'loose', and where the draw is heavy (like say an AC), the two are bound to get very hot very fast owing to this bad connection.

wherever practical, i have actually done away with the male/female and directly ('hi-quality' ) soldered the ('hi-quality' ) wire onto the bare receptacle/s. IMHO, the lesser the variables, the better.

one aspect i am fighting with is why we we NEED a pre (active or what we refer to as passive) (if the pre's job is only source selection, volume pot and increasing gain (active only) where needed), if the chain is simple and if the source o/p is more or less as much as expected by the amp., speaking of a component based system (w/o a TT, i.e.). why not have a pot (or any similar other device) intro'd directly onto the source feeding the amp (since most ('hi-quality' ) sources do not have one? that way, two pairs of ICs are reduced, not to mention double the number of the RCA/XLR connectors/receptacles.

again, IMHO, less is better.

disclaimer: there are no puns intended in any of my points above.

 

[Dr.Bass]

now, i find this post very, very contradictory. if my understanding of the a/m is correct, are u saying (in your experience) the male needs to be of the high/highest possible quality and the female can be anything!!?!! this only goes in line with the other relevant question on what is the quality upto the walwart (or the DP, or the breaker, etc.), if we only change the last mile (meter)!

i wud assume all aspects are important, also assuming (power) cables do make a sizable (discernible) difference. so, the wire, the male, the female, the way the wire is terminated onto the male, ditto for the female/walwart, soldered, etc. just as an example, if you put in a 'good quality' male into a female that is 'loose', and where the draw is heavy (like say an AC), the two are bound to get very hot very fast owing to this bad connection.

wherever practical, i have actually done away with the male/female and directly ('hi-quality' ) soldered the ('hi-quality' ) wire onto the bare receptacle/s. IMHO, the lesser the variables, the better.

one aspect i am fighting with is why we we NEED a pre (active or what we refer to as passive) (if the pre's job is only source selection, volume pot and increasing gain (active only) where needed), if the chain is simple and if the source o/p is more or less as much as expected by the amp., speaking of a component based system (w/o a TT, i.e.). why not have a pot (or any similar other device) intro'd directly onto the source feeding the amp (since most ('hi-quality' ) sources do not have one? that way, two pairs of ICs are reduced, not to mention double the number of the RCA/XLR connectors/receptacles.

again, IMHO, less is better.

disclaimer: there are no puns intended in any of my points above.

No No No !!!
Please HALT !!!
I did not mean anything the way you have interpreted my post. If anything, the female is more important than the male ! Anyway, I was only responding to the question Ajay had raised, as in where do we find equivalent female of a MX, Crabtree or Anchor male, to that I responded that I could only get some cheap local Rs.60 stuff from a store in Bangalore. It was purely in context with the budget connectors. When I talk about high end connectors, I only suggest getting something like Oyaide P-004 (male) C-004 (female) or the likes. I am not suggesting any mix and match between budget and high end connectors at all. In the end everything is important including the wall receptacle but to start with, using a high quality male and female connectors is easy and will take you a good distance, then improving other things in the power chain will always keep on adding benefits. The cables to start with should be decent as mentioned in my previous post, may not be anything exotic.

Regarding active vs passive preamp, Ashok, there are lots of debates on this on the internet and the general consensus is, passive preamp is not suitable for all power amps. Preamp's function is not just allow source selection and volume adjustment with gain but also to isolate the source component from the power amp. Most sources do not have the juice to drive a power amp directly so an active preamp does two things:

1. The source sees a much easier load (preamp).
2. The power amp gets the drive it needs.

You might be thinking a power amp which has an input sensitivity of 1 volt should be easily driven by a CDP which typically has an output of 2+ volts, but you see that is not the only criteria, driving a load is also about current, not just about voltage. A typical source never has the current reserve required to drive a power amp so if you force it do it by putting a passive preamp, what you hear is clean sound (because of shorter signal path) but lifeless and anaemic (lack of drive). There are some good cases for use of passive preamps, in those cases the power amp is specially designed that way to be passive friendly. But you can assume that such designs are 1 in 10 or even lesser. BTW, your Cadence Canasya sounds much better with a good active preamp than a passive preamp (which Cadence suggests/sells). It is also the reason a good active preamp is very expensive and very important.

 

[panditji]

No No No !!!
Please HALT !!!
I did not mean anything the way you have interpreted my post. If anything, the female is more important than the male ! Anyway, I was only responding to the question Ajay had raised, as in where do we find equivalent female of a male, to that I responded that I could only get some cheap local Rs.60 stuff from a store in Bangalore. /QUOTE]

Now now now, Dr. Bass, that is a sexist comment....pls let us not get into who is more important - male or female

 

[arj]

wherever practical, i have actually done away with the male/female and directly ('hi-quality' ) soldered the ('hi-quality' ) wire onto the bare receptacle/s. IMHO, the lesser the variables, the better.

one aspect i am fighting with is why we we NEED a pre (active or what we refer to as passive) (if the pre's job is only source selection, volume pot and increasing gain (active only) where needed), if the chain is simple and if the source o/p is more or less as much as expected by the amp., speaking of a component based system (w/o a TT, i.e.). why not have a pot (or any similar other device) intro'd directly onto the source feeding the amp (since most ('hi-quality' ) sources do not have one? that way, two pairs of ICs are reduced, not to mention double the number of the RCA/XLR connectors/receptacles.

again, IMHO, less is better.

disclaimer: there are no puns intended in any of my points above.

If you have eliminated the connectors , it is definitely the best way !-ditto for ICs and speaker cables too.
regarding a Pre, ideal pre is no pre but unfortunately not so easy to eliminate. a volume pot is ok but in the end it is a potentiometer and hence a varying resistance (impedance) at each volume level which is not ideal. a transformer based Pre is supposedly better but only of done well as transformers have their own losses.

Dr Bass has put in the other points which are pertinent as well as he has experimented with CDPs with a built in pre direct to a power amp..

 

[doors666]

No No No !!!

Regarding active vs passive preamp, Ashok, there are lots of debates on this on the internet and the general consensus is, passive preamp is not suitable for all power amps. Preamp's function is not just allow source selection and volume adjustment with gain but also to isolate the source component from the power amp. Most sources do not have the juice to drive a power amp directly so an active preamp does two things:

1. The source sees a much easier load (preamp).
2. The power amp gets the drive it needs.

You might be thinking a power amp which has an input sensitivity of 1 volt should be easily driven by a CDP which typically has an output of 2+ volts, but you see that is not the only criteria, driving a load is also about current, not just about voltage. A typical source never has the current reserve required to drive a power amp so if you force it do it by putting a passive preamp, what you hear is clean sound (because of shorter signal path) but lifeless and anaemic (lack of drive). There are some good cases for use of passive preamps, in those cases the power amp is specially designed that way to be passive friendly. But you can assume that such designs are 1 in 10 or even lesser. BTW, your Cadence Canasya sounds much better with a good active preamp than a passive preamp (which Cadence suggests/sells). It is also the reason a good active preamp is very expensive and very important.

how good a job does a soundcard do as a preamp as compared to a dedicated preamp.

 

[Santy]

Why nobody is talking about using high quality speaker cables as power cords? Provided the gauge is thick enough, these cables which do an excellent job of delivering currents of all frequencies should be more than enough for current of single/uniform frequency? Except that the voltage is very high compared to the audio, both essentially do the same job of connecting two points at different voltage levels? Had anybody involved in the power cord debate ever tried this? Just curious to know. May be I am crazy to ask something like this

PS: they have better shielding as well, than normal power cords... :d


Sent from my GT-I9001 using Tapatalk

 

[arj]

how good a job does a soundcard do as a preamp as compared to a dedicated preamp.

as a volume control this would actually be worse than a good volume pot

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Why nobody is talking about using high quality speaker cables as power cords?

May well not be safe. Let's keep 200-plus volts running only on cables designed to carry it.

however, the question has been asked the other way around, and I believe that quite a few people are happily using heavy duty domestic mains cable as speaker cable! :lol:

 

[Dr.Bass]

If you have eliminated the connectors , it is definitely the best way !-ditto for ICs and speaker cables too.

There could be more to it Arj. What a very good connector like Oyaide does is not just a good connection but also shielding from RFI and EMI, when that happens both at the entry and exit points (male and female) there is a clear benefit in terms of background silence further leading to perception of better micro details and resolution.

OYAIDE ELEC,co,.ltd.

 

[doors666]

as a volume control this would actually be worse than a good volume pot

Well, there's always going to be a volume control in a pc, whether you want to use it as a preamp or not.

What about as a current supplier to the power amp? Here also, I guess the soundcards like essence that have there own separate power supply might do a little bit better than others.

 

[Santy]

May well not be safe. Let's keep 200-plus volts running only on cables designed to carry it.

however, the question has been asked the other way around, and I believe that quite a few people are happily using heavy duty domestic mains cable as speaker cable! :lol:

Even I use power cable for the center speaker. hyeah: and it is mildly congested but vocals are better pronounced than my speaker cables.

But just wondering what other factors other than the current resistance, insulation, thermal efficiency goes into design considerations of power cables...

 

[Hiten]

May well not be safe. Let's keep 200-plus volts running only on cables designed to carry it.

I may be wrong but as far as I know inside amplifiers (non digital) where audio signals gets amplified there is No PE insulation on audio signals traveling, No Cryogenically treated copper, No oxygen free Copper, No braided shield to cover the audio signal wires...
...which expensive power cords boasts of.

So one can logically come to conclusion that things in which audio signals travel would not benefit from things which expensive power cords are made of.

 

[odyssey]

I may be wrong but as far as I know inside amplifiers (non digital) where audio signals gets amplified there is No PE insulation on audio signals traveling, No Cryogenically treated copper, No oxygen free Copper, No braided shield to cover the audio signal wires...
...which expensive power cords boasts of.

So one can logically come to conclusion that things in which audio signals travel would not benefit from things which expensive power cords are made of.

Most, if not all are very much in there inside high end gear. You can find many instances of this on a site like diyaudio where people have built high end gear with the help of designers like Nelson Pass. Using teflon insulated wires - good quality ones - Cardas as an example is encouraged. Other folks have used coax cable as internal wiring for better noise rejection. Even the basic Odyssey gear that we sell has Groneberg wiring inside - which has all of the above properties.

cheers

 

[Hiten]

Yes I have seen and read some of those threads. Infact why go that far, our own Siva has made significant contribution on Mauro penasa amp. Even minute details about position of pcb tracks to components was thought about. Which I think makes sense.
But I think only digital system would benefit from well made (not insanely high priced) powercords. Only a guess because in audio one never knows.
I think one has to make fine balance with audiophile stuff.
Regards