Power cords

Man will never stop trying to prove he is better than the rest of humanity.

Are audiophiles only pursuing the holy grail of better sound and vision? Or are they also indulging in vanity buying of status symbols and useless trinkets? Like every other industry selling 'luxuries' to a select band of customers, the audiophile industry also has its share of trinkets and trifles. Are $$$$ power cords to men what Prada hand bags are to women :)

Absolutely its as much an ego trip as it is for pure enjoyment. Even the mere term "audiophile" gives people a high and they think they have unprecedented opinion options for others. I have some relatives who did well in real estate and somehow think Bose is the best system in the world. He fit his Merc with a "amazing Bose system" in his words. His son is now into it too.

Power cords or any other cables are no different in terms of generating the ego trip.
 
Most powercords or for that matter most cables will take a minimum of half an hr to one hr to settle down in a system. You will have to keep that in mind when testing power cords or cables.

Anyone else here has observed this phenomenon that Power Cables/Speaker Cables/InterConnects takes time (minutes-hour) to settle down to their optimum performance?

the measurements in the affordable audio magazine clearly show a couple of dB of change, why isn't this sufficient?

No offense to the author, but the measurement itself was flawed/unreliable to begin with by the use of a single ended (SE) oscilloscope probe. When measuring sensitive signals and studying noise effects on them, an SE probe is a poor choice since the probe themselves pick up noise signals from surroundings while the measured parameter/signal may still be unaffected. That article might have carried a lot more weight if the author used a Differential Probe for the measurements.

The article is still very relevant for this discussion of comparing power cables if it could be repeated with a differential probe and a better power supply unit.
 
"If there is a real difference that can be heard, it must be measurable"

Thad, that's an unsound argument because it is biased towards the fact that every difference is measurable. That's the whole point of the disagreement!

I believe that homeopathy works. I believe it works in ways that science cannon measure or account for. I believe in lots of other things that are non-physical and cannot be measured by science. I am not a materialist in these things.

Where I think the mistake is made is that hifi sound, a purely physical and technical thing, has been moved into those realms. People even try to apply this sort of audiomysticism to PC sound.
Or two, you will not be able to measure it and you will then be open minded and figure out what is this difference and try to analyse it and account for it.
Sure! That's why I say you have to start looking inside the human head, not at the equipment!

Sidvee... the answer to your plaint is that all of those things must be measurable. Record your different systems with accurate, stereo mics, and, if you do not hear a difference, you should at least by able to discover it by wave analysis. If you can hear it, it will exist. What may be tougher to measure is personal interpretation, but again, we move inside ourselves to examine this, leaving the equipment behind.

<Been without power, internet, etc, last 16 hours ... catching up slowly>
 
... a little more catching up
Can you really measure everything we hear? You feel so. I feel no
Dogs? Bats? There really is nothing special about human hearing except the ability to talk about it! ;)

And, whoa, do we talk about it! :lol:
subjective parameters. - if you think all these are just audiopool hyperbole, that really does not effect sound quality - then kindly ignore this post - it does not really matter either way.
Not sure about others but when I hear, I try to experience all of the above along with stuff like pace, rythm, timing (PRAT).
Not just audiophool hyperbole, no, but certainly most of these things are subjective reactions. If the age of electronics had not happened, we might be talking about listening to the same orchestra in different halls ... and maybe, some people might be claiming that there are differences so subtle that they can't be measured!
Bring on the best measuring instruments! Let's hear what they hear.
Guess what ... that is how you are hearing your music in the first place: it was recorded. That means measured. If you can measure [record] it in the studio or concert hall, then you can measure the other end of the chain too.

The ultimate hifi would convince us, if we close our eyes, that we are listening to live musicians. One can measure one... but not the other. It doesn't add up.

Microphones, and even digital equipment was sensitive and accurate enough to measure/record every nuance of the music, but isn't sensitive enough to measure what we hear in the home. It doesn't add up.

And... hitting the topic... almost certainly no fancy power cables were used in the recording!
As I understand some of the more accomplished speaker/equipment designers voice their speakers/equipment subjectively after all objective testing is complete hearing for some of the above mentioned parameters. So these/guys-gals are nuts!
Tangental argument which doesn't apply to the question. It doesn't say that the result of what they do is not measurable.
Companies like Wilson audio/ krell/ Mark levinson etc. are just cheating people convincing them that they are hearing stuff that can't be measured and making them pay 10's of thousands of dollars.
I'd love to have some of names in my living room. We all shop for different reasons. The colour of the cabinet is a major consideration to hifi shoppers (no, really! Ask the marketing department! Note the trends, from black to silver, and back to black). Sound quality is in there somewhere.
... its as much an ego trip as it is for pure enjoyment. Even the mere term "audiophile" gives people a high and they think they have unprecedented opinion options for others.
Quite.

taking it one step further (and adding to what hifiashok said) - why we do rate tea, liquor/wine, etc on the basis of taste - why do we rely on the so called experts - why cant companies just look at chemical compositions of the so called best liquor and emulate it in a cheap fashion? Surely there must be equipment capable of breaking down the exact composition. Wouldn't it be much simpler to just look at the composition and go - hmmm...this is what I would like to have today
why only power cables - does everyone agree that ICs make a difference? what about speaker cables? what about CD transports - forget the theory in all this - can you hear it or not?
And what about girls, then? hair colour and style? figure? And what's that got to do with sound? Nothing... of course.

this is the summation of such arguments: Humans do and feel stuff that I cannot explain, therefore it is reasonable to suppose that sound reproduction is unmeasurable. Look at it that way, and ask yourself if the logic works?



Sorry this is an untidy attempt at catching up, with many thoughts out of order, and most quotes unattributed. It's a measurable effect of Cyclone Thane, which did not do us any real harm, but cost me a night's sleep.
 
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Sidvee... the answer to your plaint is that all of those things must be measurable. Record your different systems with accurate, stereo mics, and, if you do not hear a difference, you should at least by able to discover it by wave analysis. If you can hear it, it will exist. What may be tougher to measure is personal interpretation, but again, we move inside ourselves to examine this, leaving the equipment behind.

Must be measurable vs can be measurable or are they being measured now are two different things entirely. As I know today, these variables are not measured, and there is no known measurement system for these - only subjective impressions exists. IMO, up until these and other subjective variables have a proper, conclusive, Gage repeatable and reproducible methodology of being recorded all arguments for or against are moot and I will continue to rely on my own hearing and my own judgement of what good sound reproduction is. And that being said, I will gracefully retire from posting further on this thread becoz we are not really bringing anything new to the table that hasn't been beaten to death, inconclusively in various other forums.
Cheers,
Sid
 
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Perhaps this thread is not conclusive because Ajay did not name the subject as per his customary nomenclature of "4 xyz" :)
 
And that being said, I will gracefully retire from posting further on this thread becoz we are not really bringing anything new to the table that hasn't been beaten to death, inconclusively in various other forums.
Cheers,
Sid

But how can you drop off before we have proven that the earth is round:)
 
Must be measurable vs can be measurable or are they being measured now are two different things entirely. As I know today, these variables are not measured, and there is no known measurement system for these - only subjective impressions exists.
You are saying, that two sounds you experience as different, under any of the headings you list, if recorded, and the wave forms compared, will produce the same waveform?

If it sounds different, it must be different.

IMO, up until these and other subjective variables have a proper, conclusive, Gage repeatable and reproducible methodology of being recorded all arguments for or against are moot and I will continue to rely on my own hearing and my own judgement of what good sound reproduction is. And that being said, I will gracefully retire from posting further on this thread becoz we are not really bringing anything new to the table that hasn't been beaten to death, inconclusively in various other forums.
Cheers,
Sid
This isn't (well, maybe unless we are just about to buy a power cord) about real life. In real life, none of us is going to heft a hunk of kit into a shop to test the stuff we are about to buy. We are all, as you say, simply going to listen, and hand over the money --- or not. that is real life. We'd have to train as audio engineers and probably spend more on our test kit if we actually wanted to measure stuff in this way. I don't. You don't.

However, sometimes in this world of hifi, we are face claims that are, to some of us, absurd. Green ink on the CD absurd. De-magnitize the vinyl absurd. No double-blind tests absurd...

Fancy power cord absurd? That's the question that this thread is about. "I can hear it," is not an unreasonable argument, but "I can hear it, but this is beyond the realms of any other proof, " to me, is not.

So it goes on: Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! --- until someone does prove the point in a way that does not rely on subjective perception.
 
A very simple explanation of amplification is here:

HowStuffWorks "Pump It Up"

"The output circuit is generated by the amplifier's power supply, which draws energy from a battery or power outlet."

So theoretically, shouldn't a better power supply provide a better output? Are we still not in agreement with a pure power supply or are we only discussing the role of power cords in providing a clean source?
 
And how does a different power cord contribute to that "better" power supply?

Some say that it does, some say that it doesn't. Some say that it can, others say that it cannot.

No... not much agreement! Plenty of scope for an infinite thread :)
 
Are we still not in agreement with a pure power supply or are we only discussing the role of power cords in providing a clean source?

Current discussion is about role of power cords. Quality of power supply is another topic, and let's not even bring it into this discussion as it will complicate matters even more :lol:
 
Ok - I ve bought a Tarantula MK6 technical specifications | whathifi.com

For testing I would need few weeks time as Im moving home etc. If anyone in Bangalore is interested to test, I can lend the cable by the end of Jan.

Thanks for the offer! I will be happy to try and hear just how much difference an award winning power cord makes. I do believe it will make a difference, the question is about price/performance really. :)

--G0bble
 
Sidvee... the answer to your plaint is that all of those things must be measurable. Record your different systems with accurate, stereo mics, and, if you do not hear a difference, you should at least by able to discover it by wave analysis. If you can hear it, it will exist. What may be tougher to measure is personal interpretation, but again, we move inside ourselves to examine this, leaving the equipment behind.

<Been without power, internet, etc, last 16 hours ... catching up slowly>

If the test is done this way ;

Can these instruments be used to differentiate between two amplifiers or dacs ?

Say Rotel and Naim power amps ? Cambridge audio and audionote dacs.
 
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So when is the audition happening? I would be glad to be a part of it. Ofcourse I cannot distinguish the difference since my ears are not trained to that level of listening. But it will be interesting to see the reaction of people who support the theory and who disapprove it. :)
 
If they sound different, then why not?

This whole business is about recording a sound and playing it back.

If these instruments can differentiate between two Dacs, then surely it will be able to tell the differences between any cablepower cords or whatever ;)

Now if it cannot, will you buy one Dac over the other even if it sounds different to your ears ?
 
Perhaps this thread is not conclusive because Ajay did not name the subject as per his customary nomenclature of "4 xyz" :)

joshua

If editing the title was permitted I would have long ago changed it to 4 Power Cords :)

When I began the thread I did not have many brands of cables in mind. But I did want to learn about copper connectors made by Oyaide, Furutech, Wattgate and at least one Indian brand. I have not been able to locate any Indian brand which manufactures both male and female connectors. Oyaide and Furitech both look very nicely built but they cost too much.

What I would actually like to try is a power cord made from 6 mm LAPP cable (last time I checked it was roughly 5000 inr for a 90 meter roll) with locally manufactured, good quality copper connectors. If a group deal could be arranged with one power cord costing around 500 inr, then I wouldn't mind buying three of them!
 
Ajay, pure copper connectors are very rare, locally (India make) I dont know of any.
I have tried many connectors:
Oyaide - P004, C004, P046
Furutech - F11-M (cu), F25-M (G)
Wattgate - 320i and 330i
Marinco
Hubbel
National (Japan)
Anchor
Crabtree
MX

The one I could not try was a IeGO. Out of all these the only pure copper connector was the Furutech F-11 (cu). Oyaide is 004 is Berylium plated copper. Others are mostly brass or gold plated brass.

Oyaide is the fastest, cleanest sounding connector, tonally a little coloured but fairly natural as well.

Furutech is the smoothest, lushiest connector, it lacks speed compared to an Oyaide, the copper version is the most neutral Furutech and sounds the really good.

Wattgate is okay, tonally correct but is not as refined as either of the above, the treble range is grainy. The Gold plated version is much better but is also very expensive.

Marinco, Hubbel, sounds like Wattgate but a little more refined. However once you have tasted Oyaide or Furutech you will know that these dont belong to the same class.

National (Japan), superb plugs if you can find them. One of the best I have tried.

Anchor is the best Indian plug I have found, it is smooth and natural but not very refined or clean. But still acceptable if Indian plugs are to be used.

Crabtree and MX are okay, both of them sounded a bit harsh to my ears, so I did not try them any further.

All these experiments were done on various power cords ranging from Finolex, Oyaide Tunami, Lapp Kabel and few more.
 
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