Power cords

[Thad E Ginathom]

I notice a trend in these threads where an expert or one who claims knowledge or a skeptic basically says (actually trashes is the right word) that another person who has experienced some improved audio reproduction due to some tweak is just fooling himself, and that no difference exists. This is the part I strongly disagree with.

If you were talking to me, then yes, you would have a point, and I'd have to concede that I am no engineer --- but when someone who is an engineer says such things, and explains some of the whys, or, at least, some of the why-nots, then surely its question time at least?

Even more so when that person spends time, money and effort trying to improve the sound - he is doing it because he believes and hears it working. He is not pontificating some theoretical improvement which may or may not be scientifically sound, he is actually acting on what he believes - and that IMO is laudable and that is what this hobby is all about.

I have to admit pontificating some theoretical stuff in my time even! Life is strange, and sometimes reality turns out not to have been.

On the other hand, I recall one argument that I had with science. Telling a young, inexperienced doctor that I had a severe pain in some particular organ, his response was, "You can't have: it doesn't have any nerve endings." That didn't make my pain go away!

Why single out audio? and if audio consumers are getting fooled by this marketing spiel - that includes state of the art manufacturing and testing BTW - then God help everyone else.

Quite.

 

[deepakgang]

You can't change the other person, but everyone should try not to disrespect any opinion or questioning. More so as this is an online forum where you dont see each other and the chances of you taking things in a wrong sense is more.

If I can't hear any difference in the sound and the next person can, then I can either make fun of him or take that he has a more sensitive ear.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

It's not quite like that, because "making fun" is not the right way of putting it.

This is not religion: believing something does not make it so. The sincerity of the belief (unless we are taking about actual manufacturers' marketing departments) is not in question: what is in question is what is actually happening.

 

[sidvee]

If you were talking to me, then yes, you would have a point, and I'd have to concede that I am no engineer --- but when someone who is an engineer says such things, and explains some of the whys, or, at least, some of the why-nots, then surely its question time at least?

No Thad I was not talking to you - it was a general statement - about observations not only in this thread but various other threads. I am not trying to take names or make this personal - just what I observed about the trends in similar threads.
Secondly just because someone is an engineer in a related area does not mean squat - unless of-course he or she has been associated with what we are talking about specifically for a number of years and has a hi-fi system with enough resolution to hear aforementioned differences and takes the trouble to do so instead of falling back on theroretical why or why not's. For instance if a person does connect different cables in his system and listens and finds no difference - then more power to him - whether he is an expert in the power field or not/rather than claim the same based on deduction.
For that matter even within the field of audio there is a dichotomy/disagreement/resentment etc. even between pro audio experts and home audio experts - just read all the balanced and SE cable wars in other forums or class A vs class ab vs class d amplification.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

No Thad I was not talking to you - it was a general statement -

Sorry, not clearly posted: it was a hypothetical If rather than a personal "if you were talking to me" As in me or any of the others who have opinions, make our choices on which sources to believe, etc, etc, but do not have any technical qualification. So it wasn't taken, or meant, personally.

Obviously I have my chosen stand on this (hey... I once did buy an expensive cable!), but I reserve the right to be convinced otherwise ... it's an interesting debate, especially when we have an engineer, whose experience seems to be appropriate, and a physicist involved.

And, in my theoretical world, I might go for balanced cables, made from decent pro-quality materials, which would not be cheap, but I doubt it could come to as much as "top-end" hifi interconnects. One might even have enough change left over to buy the gear with balanced I/O! :lol:

 

[square_wave]

No Thad I was not talking to you - it was a general statement - about observations not only in this thread but various other threads. I am not trying to take names or make this personal - just what I observed about the trends in similar threads.
Secondly just because someone is an engineer in a related area does not mean squat - unless of-course he or she has been associated with what we are talking about specifically for a number of years and has a hi-fi system with enough resolution to hear aforementioned differences and takes the trouble to do so instead of falling back on theroretical why or why not's. For instance if a person does connect different cables in his system and listens and finds no difference - then more power to him - whether he is an expert in the power field or not/rather than claim the same based on deduction.
For that matter even within the field of audio there is a dichotomy/disagreement/resentment etc. even between pro audio experts and home audio experts - just read all the balanced and SE cable wars in other forums or class A vs class ab vs class d amplification.
Cheers,
Sid

Agree.

One common trend I have seen with many skeptics on this forum is that they do not take the trouble to test it out themselves before making a point on the forum.

I am not singling out this forum. It happens everywhere else too but this forum somehow gives free reign to many gents who make comments without real experience. It is quite funny sometimes.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Well, as I said, I did once buy a relatively expensive power cord --- but now I'm a reformed character :lol:

 

[gobble]

I will be happy to invite all parties up North for a session of Music accompanied with some nice Malts and/or Wine. Bring your cables - Finolex, Shunyata, Transparent, DIY or whatever! If you can hear a difference, great.. If not, enjoy the malt, music, crisp cold weather and company (hopefully )! Cheers!

That will be a little unfair and unscientific comparison - The person who enjoys 12 years aged single malt bottled in Scotland may hear things differently from the person drinking Wine from 2009 (hardly a vintage) or Rum from the Caribbean. Then whether you like it "shaken not stirred" or "On the rocks" will make a difference to what you hear compared to how things sound with plain chilled water or soda. hyeah:

--G0bble

 

[awedeophile]

As usual.. No takers...

 

[Hiten]

I will be happy to invite all parties up North for a session of Music accompanied with some nice Malts and/or Wine. Bring your cables - Finolex, Shunyata, Transparent, DIY or whatever! If you can hear a difference, great.. If not, enjoy the malt, music, crisp cold weather and company (hopefully )! Cheers!

As usual.. No takers...

Bro, idea was....
those who are well exposed to a high resolution digital system and have considerable experience in distinguishing various power cables would guide fellow members who did not believe in them. So I guess it would require a volunteer who hears changes (His own system+various power cords) and will share his views.
Also one would not seek straight forward yes/no answer. but sharing experience of perceived changes power cords makes and price one pays for it. So identifying various cables is only needed criteria regardless of subjective listening experience.
Regards

 

[jls001]

I think this issue needs to be taken to its logical conclusion by conducting the A/B/C/etc testing suggested earlier by members. Only power cables must change and everything else stays the same to keep the playing field absolutely level. The outcome will be certainly very educative. IMO, a pre-requisite for the testers to be able to discern differences, if at all, is a transparent and resolving chain.

Next up, we can start another discussion - on a separate thread - on say, something like the effect of a footer on sound. We've been raining on Ajay's parade long enough and he could evict us any day now:lol:

 

[ajay124]

joshua

Everyone is welcome to carry on debating on this thread. I have been staying on the sidelines because I too feel that the best way to resolve this issue is by an A/B/C/D test where 4 power cord's are auditioned and the music and components remain the same. Although I doubt if anything will be conclusively revealed by the test! Because the juries will carry their prejudices and preferences into the audition room. And there is also the danger that the debate during the audition may heat up to a point where power cords become wmd's

 

[manoj.p]

Blind testing. That should take out the prejudices and biases.

 

[prem]

Most powercords or for that matter most cables will take a minimum of half an hr to one hr to settle down in a system. You will have to keep that in mind when testing power cords or cables.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Blind testing. That should take out the prejudices and biases.

I think the test has to be instrument-based. We have to leave out the fickle human ears and brains

Most powercords or for that matter most cables will take a minimum of half an hr to one hr to settle down in a system.

Once Again, I suggest the touch-two-bare-ends test for this one.

Matters of faith?

 

[stevieboy]

I think the test has to be instrument-based. We have to leave out the fickle human ears and brains

Thad, then you will be leaving out instruments with far greater capabilities than anything ever invented by a bunch of evolved monkeys.

It's also the equivalent of saying Michelin's should now go around awarding stars to restaurants based on the temperature, colour and other various tests they administer to food in a laboratory rather than do it the old fashioned way and actually taste it

Regards

 

[ajay124]

Blind testing. That should take out the prejudices and biases.

Blind testing will not be free of prejudice and bias. The pro-power cord lobby will still 'hear' many things while the anti-power cord lobby will 'hear' nothing. But it would be revealing and amusing if the girl next door power cords outperform the la-di-da one's.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thad, then you will be leaving out instruments with far greater capabilities than anything ever invented by a bunch of evolved monkeys.

Apparently, that is not the case ... as per Digitalv's comments on measuring equipment in previous posts. Our ears, as animal ears go, are not even particularly good: if it is not to be instrumental testing, then we might do well to employ our dogs!

Reminder: the initial question is not, "does it sound better/worse?" but, "Is there, in fact, an actual difference?"

Another reminder: our music was played by monkeys, on instruments created by monkeys, and recorded and processed on other instruments created and operated by monkeys. It begins with art and creativity; it ends with appreciation; in between there is pure technology --- and pure technology has got to perfectly capable of measuring and analysing it.

Blind testing will not be free of prejudice and bias. The pro-power cord lobby will still 'hear' many things while the anti-power cord lobby will 'hear' nothing.

Exactly. This element has to be removed to answer question number one. Of course, it could destroy a whole industry!

 

[venkatcr]

in between there is pure technology --- and pure technology has got to perfectly capable of measuring and analysing it.

Superbly stated.

I think professional reviewers use exotic words to stay in business. It is very much like management jargon. They use a lot of high funda words why my profit is so low. It is just that I am not earning enough, or my expenses are too high.

I think the concept of "I can hear it, you cannot' is a lot of hogwash. There is only some many sounds in a musical piece. If you can hear it so can I, as long as we both have same condition of ears. Can you hear the 'air'? Sure if I go and stand near the beach, I can certainly hear a lot of 'air'. In a musical piece, I want to hear music, not 'air', unless it is part of the recording. Can you hear the 'attack'? Sure, I will play a war movie and hear a lot of 'attack'. Can you hear the 'speed'? Sure, when I watch a jet screaming over my head, not when Lata is crooning, nor when Kishore is yodelling, unless it is a LP rotating at the wrong speed.

Man will never stop trying to prove he is better than the rest of humanity.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

Man will never stop trying to prove he is better than the rest of humanity.

Are audiophiles only pursuing the holy grail of better sound and vision? Or are they also indulging in vanity buying of status symbols and useless trinkets? Like every other industry selling 'luxuries' to a select band of customers, the audiophile industry also has its share of trinkets and trifles. Are $$$$ power cords to men what Prada hand bags are to women