Power cords
- Thread starter ajay124
- Start date
Hiten, echoing Prem.Power Chords are not very consistant across setups..unfortunately have no science to say why or why not but I've had Finolex bettering some chords in certain situations and vice versa in others.
but some other folks have had very different experiences which may contradict.
Experimenting with powerchords can be really frustrating as many times the movement is sidewise ( ie you lose something and you gain something).
Saying PCs make no difference is something I cannot concur with as there are obvious differences and if you do not hear it is just means that the system is not able to resolve the differences. There is a "central Theme" around each Powerchord. eg an ESP reference makes the Bass tight but also hits the Midrange and makes it sharper which is not great. Finolex is very dynamic but the bass gets a bit Wooly etc etc. But it is quite understandable if one does not want to experiment too much with it due to its seemingly Random changes( and $$$
) So you can embrace it or ignore it..but you cannot pretend it does not Exist !
On a separate note
I would be really keen to understand Why though !! the main things which change from Power chord to powerchord are
1. material (Copper/silver etc)
2.Geometry (shape of conductor& Number of conductors) as well as weaving
3. shielding and insulation
4. Connectors
I guess the above parameters are the ones causing all the changes. Siltechs view on the impact to other ICs/Speaker cables is also interesting...and could be very true.
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Another point , a bit OT
Digital equipents like CD players/Dacs do include power distortions back into the circuit (As do Tubelight chokes).
hence isolating your Digital and Analogue setups from each other can also give great benefits. this could be by means of some Mild filtering.
Apparently Isolation transformers used on only the digital equipment do help here as many of thee High frequency signals may not get into the main supply and hence the Amp/preamp get s better power signal.
anyway this point is an OT from powerchords so please do excuse.
Digital equipents like CD players/Dacs do include power distortions back into the circuit (As do Tubelight chokes).
hence isolating your Digital and Analogue setups from each other can also give great benefits. this could be by means of some Mild filtering.
Apparently Isolation transformers used on only the digital equipment do help here as many of thee High frequency signals may not get into the main supply and hence the Amp/preamp get s better power signal.
anyway this point is an OT from powerchords so please do excuse.
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Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
I have read the point of view that if a power cable is able to affect the sound, then the unit's power supply unit is badly designed. Seems to me, as a just-consumer-not-engineer, that such equipment should be designed to be suitable for use with normal electrical and environmental vagaries --- and that the more one pays, the more one has a right to expect that to be true.
Whilst I can't see myself going down the route of a tube DAC, I was looking at the lampizator site yesterday. Tubes or no tubes, I could really appreciate his design philosophy of well over-speced power components.
Whilst I can't see myself going down the route of a tube DAC, I was looking at the lampizator site yesterday. Tubes or no tubes, I could really appreciate his design philosophy of well over-speced power components.
My very limited understanding:
1. First, the basic of audio amplification - what you are amplifying is the power supply! The audio signal just modulates the power supply. You are not amplifying the audio signal. Don't be suprised by this statement. Just read up on audio amplification.
2. therefore a clean power supply, free of transients, noise and RF/EMI interference is the ideal power source. RF/EMI interference part is usually easier to clean up as a shield (like the outer braid on cables) will cut off most forms of electrical and magnetic intereferences that are audible on the audio band. What is not so easy is the cleaning up of transients and noise. An ideal AC supply should be a pure sine wave, but it hardly ever is in any part of the world. Domestic AC power supply is hardly sinusoidal, and has lots of transient wave forms riding on it. This is where power conditioners come in. On top of that there are lots of domestic appliances that produce large power transients while switching on and off (ACs and refrigerators come to mind but it could also be a friendly neighbourhood mechanic wielding his power tool).
3. Conductors vary in their ability to conduct, explaining the existence of so many varieties of conductors - copper, aluminium (hardly used nowadays even for domestic wiring), silver, copper coated with aluminium, stranded copper, stranded copper coated with silver, whatever! I heard some people even use gold. And we haven't even touched upon geometry, single core versus stranded and Skin effect
. I think the flavour of the seaon is single core conductors Even I have a DIY one that powers my CDp. Some cable manufacturers ask, "why split the incoming signal into many smaller signal across a stranded cable, and re-assemble them at the other end?" Don't you think they have a point?4. Then comes the connectors. Basically the job of the connector is to be a stable and secure joint between the power outlet and the equipment, passing as much of the electricity from source to user equipment, without sparking (which happens due to loose contacts - a spark is the source of RF and EMI from DC to infinity frequency). We have the garden variety connector which is nothing but a cast brass pin coated with chrome. Then there are more elaborate ones made of pure copper, or copper coated with gold.
Coming to whether a power cable makes a difference, at least in my system, I can hear a difference between difference power cables.
Hi Thad, that was somethihg even i believed in for quite some time, but then there are very few equipment which are so well designed and almost always have a battery backup built in...
if you have the time and the patience, This Thread is really interesting. this mans focus on power is really interesting...
deepakgang
Active Member
Also interested to know if I have a cdp, a pre and a power amp and if I have one power chord to replace the stock ones, where should I use it first - the power amp?
the CDP...i have always found the CDP to React the Most to any power changes.
Followed by the preamp and then the Power. another view supporting this is the source First Philosophy ie geve the best you can to the source and then move down the chain (of course within practical and reasonable limits)
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Thanks arj,
Earlier I didn't believe in it then browsing the net found out about power cord making difference because of 'seeing high resolution system lying in between live and return wire of power cord' made some sense. And now I have 'neutral' view on this
. But as a technically illiterate couldn't understand it so suggested a test.
. The test would not be what is superior or inferior just an observation.
Regards
Earlier I didn't believe in it then browsing the net found out about power cord making difference because of 'seeing high resolution system lying in between live and return wire of power cord' made some sense. And now I have 'neutral' view on this
. But as a technically illiterate couldn't understand it so suggested a test. Yes that's why I suggested a single high resolution digital setup. only power cords would change.
Exactly what I wanted to say but can not put it in words
. The test would not be what is superior or inferior just an observation. That would be of my interest too. As it would put some solid foundation to belief in why power cords make difference.
Regards
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Whomsoever having the resources and patience and an unbiased mind, please do test and post the results.
From my experience in designing electronics equipment for almost every major manufacturer in the world for over a decade, I am 100% certain that this is nothing but good old placebo effect which we humans are well known for and the ONE and ONLY reason behind a lot of audio snake-oil peddlers taking us for a royal ride.
Interference basically falls into Radiated Emissions/Interference and Conducted Emission/Interference. This could be due to the equipment as well as surrounding equipment/lines.
I just cant buy the claim of power line interference (Radiated Emission) affecting other lines in some non-obvious ways. The power line radiation peak (if any) will be at 50/60Hz and it would be clearly audible as a hum in silent passages. If 50Hz hum itself is inaudible, the chances of its sub-harmonics affecting the audio is even more negligible.
During the design cycle, we have to subject the products to EMI scans and Radiated Emissions of 50/60Hz signals are virtually unheard of. They do happen at a much much higher frequency (Mhz, GHz) but a Power Cord, however hallowed they are, has no significance in containing or contributing to such Radiated Emissions. Radiated Emissions are contained using better case designs and shielding noisy parts which any sensible manufacturer would have already taken care. Before launching a product into market, there are stringent regulatory tests the product must invariably go through.
Now comes the next part, Conducted Emission... This can happen through any electrically connected interface including the power cable...A good old EMI/RFI filter is all you need to contain this to allowable limits and any decently designed equipment almost always have one such filter built into the inlet or as part of the circuit...A shielded power cable can in NO way help avoid Conducted Emission but an EMI/RFI filter can.
From my experience in designing electronics equipment for almost every major manufacturer in the world for over a decade, I am 100% certain that this is nothing but good old placebo effect which we humans are well known for and the ONE and ONLY reason behind a lot of audio snake-oil peddlers taking us for a royal ride.
Interference basically falls into Radiated Emissions/Interference and Conducted Emission/Interference. This could be due to the equipment as well as surrounding equipment/lines.
I just cant buy the claim of power line interference (Radiated Emission) affecting other lines in some non-obvious ways. The power line radiation peak (if any) will be at 50/60Hz and it would be clearly audible as a hum in silent passages. If 50Hz hum itself is inaudible, the chances of its sub-harmonics affecting the audio is even more negligible.
During the design cycle, we have to subject the products to EMI scans and Radiated Emissions of 50/60Hz signals are virtually unheard of. They do happen at a much much higher frequency (Mhz, GHz) but a Power Cord, however hallowed they are, has no significance in containing or contributing to such Radiated Emissions. Radiated Emissions are contained using better case designs and shielding noisy parts which any sensible manufacturer would have already taken care. Before launching a product into market, there are stringent regulatory tests the product must invariably go through.
Now comes the next part, Conducted Emission... This can happen through any electrically connected interface including the power cable...A good old EMI/RFI filter is all you need to contain this to allowable limits and any decently designed equipment almost always have one such filter built into the inlet or as part of the circuit...A shielded power cable can in NO way help avoid Conducted Emission but an EMI/RFI filter can.
Speaking for myself but I really do not know what to measure... If you could drop in to someone's place and if you could hear some differences, maybe you may have a better idea on what to measure!
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deepakgang
Active Member
Then I wonder why the CDP, Amp manufacturers dont boast about their improved power chords every time they release new hardware. Its not that they make their own power chords for us to buy.
Thats the way the whole economics work..usually dealers have multiple brand chords and they want to have a choice of mix and match .
very few manufacturers actually talk about a recommended cable. Reimyo used to always sell with Harmonix cables at one time...not sure now.
.very few manufacturers actually talk about a recommended cable. Reimyo used to always sell with Harmonix cables at one time...not sure now.
awedeophile
Active Member
Speaking for myself but I really do not know what to measure... If you could drop in to someone's place and if you could hear some differences, maybe you may have a better idea on what to measure!
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Power Cords are the most debated topic on most forums and have been discussed umpteen times on HFV earlier too.
Many people have offered to demostrate the difference a power cord makes but I always find very few takers.. People seem to have some sort of mental block against PC's making a difference and hence won't even make the effort to go to someones place to listen.
Probably has something to do with the outrageous pricing and claims of 'some' manufacturers, making the whole thing unbelievable.
Could you/anyone please point me to one scientific reference or technical explanation on why Power Cords can make measurable audio quality difference?
I'm open to learning this "phenomenon" which at least to me beats all engineering logic. If this is indeed true (100% unlikely), I do have the resources to further test this with high-end test gear and publish a scientific white paper on this very topic(AFAIK such a paper doesn't exist). But I just don't like to make myself a clown in the hardware design community to start wasting precious test equipment resources and time on something which beats logic in first place.
What I'm really looking forward is not a listening session which is highly subjective but a noise floor, THD & Spectral measurement snapshot comparing an OE Power Cable and a Virgin-Kissed Power Cable connected to a balanced power supply.
Please do not quote "sponsored" reviews (available aplenty), placebo reports and references from snake-oil peddling websites.
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ajay124
Well-Known Member
Because to some extent all hifi manufacturers are selling snake oil. And they don't want to tread on the toes of other merchants involved in a simlar trade! When they manage to sell a cdp for 10000$, they feel it is time to build a separate transport and dac, and sell each unit for 10000$. And when they manage to sell an amplifier for 10000$, they feel they can do better by selling a pre amp and a power amp each for 10000$. And perhaps the power supply needs to be separated from the amps. And perhaps you can't do without a power conditioner. And how can you call yourself a self respecting audiofool if you can't hear the difference between two different brands of power cords. Perhaps one day they will be able to manufacture human ears in various price segments and we will be able to hear what they want us to hear
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It is also too much of a grey area still. basically my left brain refuses to believe it but my right brain senses it
reminds me of the multiple fights i have seen over the years on powerchords across all forums ! nothing ever gets proven but there's a Deja Vu every couple of months !
These days i just dont care..Like religion its upto the person to believe..i can attempt to show what I have learnt but then its ones individual choice and belief
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