Power cords

[prem]

IME power seems to have much more of an impact on digital. Each power cord tackles RF and EMI problems differently and hence depending on the gear can sound very different. A power cable which works with say Esoteric need not work with Ayon. Whenever i changed my cd player i felt the need to change my power cords.

 

[Hiten]

Thanks Prem. I also believe digital system would be more sensitive to such things. Analogue system would be more accommodating to such negligible flaws. for ex. if one's speakers cant produce below 20 hz sounds which one can hardly hear wouldn't it make a better system ? and one could focus more on basic things.
Regards

 

[Hiten]

The blind test would be....
any volunteer would bring his system. Bring one very expensive power cord, two least expensive but proper gauge power cord and two moderately priced well made power cord. Out of five power cords he will only have to identify (1) least expensive and (2) most expensive power cord and not which power cord sounds better. Thats all.
I repeat this would not be right or wrong or one upmanship kind of test. Just honest attempt to learn things.
Regards

 

[ajay124]

venkatcr

"The 220 volts comes to your house through miles of bad wiring over which you have no control. And, you tell me a few meters of wires kissed by some virgins will magically improve your power supply?"

What you say makes sense (although it would be difficult for a buyer to verify the purity/impurity of the ladies who kissed the cable )

But I agree with Prem that with a CDP you need to give some importance to the cable and connectors. I have tried 5 different power cords with my CD player and all of them changed the sound marginally. The change is not dramatic but it is palpable and audible. I lost interest in power cords because my system sounded better with the generic cables I received with the components than with any of the branded cables.

It may sound ridiculous that the last one meter of a power cable can assume some importance in the hifi chain, but based on what I have heard during my auditions at home, every power cord affects the sound for the better or worse. Finding a power cord which works with your cdp/pre/power amp is strictly a dark arts affair. I don't believe that tech specs, price or the reputation and claims of a manufacturer/reviewer can be used as a pointer. Unless one can afford to experiment, the safest option would be to stick with the generic cords which come bundled with the unit, or try out Finolex cables with Indian connectors. There are so many better ways of blowing up your hifi budget

 

[prem]

Hi Hiten

If a speaker can produce the 20 -40 Hz it makes a big difference. Its not about more bass but how it affects the other frequencies as well as the ambient sounds.

In an analogue system RF and EMI is not much of an issue, hence power plays a less important role.

 

[ajay124]

In the previous post I wrote that "every power cord affects the sound for the better or worse".

Perhaps a more accurate way of putting it would be that all the 220v cables and European/U.K connectors sounded similar. But the sound changed when I plugged in 110v cables with US connectors. I felt that the sound had lost its mojo. The US connectors offered a better fit than the Schuko or British connectors. Therefore it is possible that the villain was the 110v cable. Would it be possible to use US male/female connectors with a Finolex cable?

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay


The current carrying capacity of the cable is important which is gauge dependent. Doesnt matter whether cable is made in USA or UK or India. If your amp draws 1200 watts, you will need a minimum of 6 amp current carrying capacity wire for Indian voltages and 12 amp current carrying capacity wire for American voltages.

 

[prem]

Hi Hiten

Least priced cable does not mean its inferior or the most expensive does not mean its the best. Hence the test you are proposing will not reveal anything. Earlier my cables set me back a couple of lakhs. Today my entire cost of cabling is less than Rs 10000. That does not mean my earlier cables were bad. Its just that its voiced for a different system.

The same set of power cords will behave differently with different pieces of gear. Every piece of equipment is voiced under certain conditions. Its always important to write to the designer and figure out what cord he used when voicing. For example Leben may be voiced with Acoustic Revive power cords in which case in all probability using that power cord is likely to give you the best results. But using the same Acoustic Revive power cord on another piece of equipment may not give the same result.

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay, i use US connectors in my DIY power cables

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay


Your US power cord killing life and the European cords working has got to do with shielding and non shielding. The stock cord which comes with Esoteric is not shielded whereas the Volex and the other US cords you have tried are all shielded. Since you are already cleaning up the power with the Emerson, your system may be responding better to unshielded power cords.

 

[awedeophile]

Exactly. The 220 volts comes to your house through miles of bad wiring over which you have no control. And, you tell me a few meters of wires kissed by some virgins will magically improve your power supply?

Cheers

Hi Venkat,

Have you actually compared various brands/types of Power Cords? If cords don't matter then even Finolex is not needed. Use any properly rated wire and it should work as good.

I used to be very skeptical about power cables but after sorting out my AC with a balanced power supply, I can easily make out a difference in power cords, mainly in the bass. The reason I now feel I was unable to hear any differences is because I had a lot of noise in my Neutral which was making everything sound relatively bad. I have measurements of the power coming to my setup of both after and before the BPS was put it.

All the cables I have (power and other), have been bought only after trying them in my own setup. I always do a blind A/B test and IF and ONLY IF I am able to distinguish and prefer the cable 5/5 times, will I buy it.
Owing to this, I replaced the power cords on my power amps with cords costing 1/3rd of what I had.

I can't tell you the science behind why power cables make a difference, but they do and a more expensive cable does not mean it's better. I also do feel that many cable manufactures make very tall claims and price their products beyond reason, but I guess there must be a market for them.

I met Edwin van der Kleij of Siltech a year ago and posed the question about power cords to him. His explanation was that passive power cords do not and cannot filter the AC but a good cord will prevent inducing noise into adjacent interconnect and speaker cables. Same is echoed on their website:
Siltech Cables - Q&A

I have using one for a year, and I can vouch for it unhesitatingly. The technology has been borrowed from power conditioners they made for hospital equipment such as heart and lung machines where a life depends on it's accuracy. Sharath and his father are very knowledgeable people.
Cheers

The Zephyr consists of a standard EMI/RF Filter (LCR network) and an isolation transformer. An isolation transformer is almost the same as ANY transformer but here the input and ouput voltages are the same.
A transformer decouples the input from the output and is good for preventing DC and ground loops but does not really filter out noise and if not made well can actually choke/dampen the music.

Isolation transformers are used in countless applications which may include hosiptals. For the price it is a good product but definitely not a cureall.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I met Edwin van der Kleij of Siltech a year ago and posed the question about power cords to him. His explanation was that passive power cords do not and cannot filter the AC but a good cord will prevent inducing noise into adjacent interconnect and speaker cables.

So the argument is that it is not any difference in power delivered to the unit that results in different sound (which I find hard to believe, belonging to Venkat's it's-the-last-one-metre-only school of thought, but the fact that there is less interference with other cables in the system. I can appreciate the logic of that, although I would think that the problem would be better solved by better shielding of the alleged-to-be-affected cables.

Added to which, we live in an electrically noisy world. I wonder how many cell-phone signals there are going through our hifi systems, not to mention all the the other radio stuff ---or, even, the cabling that may be running in the walls near our systems.

Before we sweat about radiation from a power cable, how about demanding that all the wifi in the house be switched off? Whoops! The our Squeezeboxes won't work!

The blind test would be....
any volunteer would bring his system. Bring one very expensive power cord, two least expensive but proper gauge power cord and two moderately priced well made power cord. Out of five power cords he will only have to identify (1) least expensive and (2) most expensive power cord and not which power cord sounds better. Thats all.

It's a good idea --- but I am sure that people will hear differences. A proper A/B blind test would require that people are not even aware of the switching, which would probably be beyond amateur setup. On the other hand, any blind test is better than none

 

[awedeophile]

So you are saying that it is not any difference in power delivered to the unit that results in different sound (which I find hard to believe, belonging to Venkat's it's-the-last-one-metre-only school of thought, but the fact that there is less interference with other cables in the system....

I'm not saying that but a reputed 30 year old Cable manufacturer is.

I'm not an expert on the subject and hence don't know the effects of wifi signals on an audio setup. Cellphones placed close to a piece of equipment/speaker do cause noise and disturbance.

What I do know is that power cords can change the sound and I will be happy to show this difference to anyone who cares to hear it. How and why, I do not know. Siltech's explanation is the most believable to me which is why I posted it.

Cables in the wall can induce noise into the setup. I have experienced this in the past with hum that changed when I moved a particular IC around. Narrowed it down to a cable in the wall right behind the IC that was powering my Air conditioner. Incidentally using a balanced XLR cable in the RCA cables place resulted in no hum which means different cables and/or setups will react differently.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I'm not saying that but a reputed 30 year old Cable manufacturer is.

Edited my post to reflect that.

 

[Hiten]

Prem,
I always respect your posts, because they are based on personal experience, knowledge and facts. Please find below some explanation.
-x-x-x-
Everyone,
Please don't misunderstand me. Most of the debatable questions have remained unanswered for too long even in forums like diyAudio, where vastly experienced reputed audio engineers take part. In audio amplification there is no perfect system. For even systems costing lakhs of rupees listeners give there different subjective listening perception. So spending more money will not give you good sounding system. The vogue example of 20hz was given just to make a point that it would be a better system for subjective listener so as he can focus on lets say room acoustics, speaker placement, circuit topology, power supply regulation etc. Now it would be only logical conclusion that such things make more difference to sound than power cords. wouldn't it ? So its a kind of give and take thing in audio amplification. There were few reasons why I suggested that test. Pardon me but as I said in post #103, it is not for what is superior or inferior. The test would give answer to.... volunteer's capability to distinguish SQ difference between various power cords. And finding least & most expensive power cord would give answer to how much difference it makes at what price as I suppose difference would be more noticeable. One would be using same gear for all power cords and if possible most revealing system should be used.
regards

 

[venkatcr]

Have you actually compared various brands/types of Power Cords? If cords don't matter then even Finolex is not needed. Use any properly rated wire and it should work as good.

His explanation was that passive power cords do not and cannot filter the AC but a good cord will prevent inducing noise into adjacent interconnect and speaker cables.

That is the reason I stick to Finolex. Their shielding seems to be good. I have never heard any hum in my systems as the A/c and other power cables and the cables carrying power to my system are separated by 6 feet. Secondly when I moved into my house, I had spent money sinking a proper 30 feet earthing pit. In my mind, these deliver better results than any cable costing 50,000 per inch.

The Zephyr consists of a standard EMI/RF Filter (LCR network) and an isolation transformer. An isolation transformer is almost the same as ANY transformer but here the input and ouput voltages are the same. A transformer decouples the input from the output and is good for preventing DC and ground loops but does not really filter out noise and if not made well can actually choke/dampen the music. Isolation transformers are used in countless applications which may include hosiptals. For the price it is a good product but definitely not a cureall.

There is never a cureall, unless you generate your own power. Even there, the power could gather noise by the time it reaches your system. So what do you do? Stop listening to music? Or make a whole system run on batteries, in an electrically isolated atmosphere? Maybe outer space?

For the purposes of listening to music, and watching movies, the Zephyr works superbly and that is all I care about. And it is a power conditioner, not a stabiliser. It just cleans the power and gives it me, and that it does very well.

Cheers

 

[prem]

Hi Hiten

I am not very clear as to your post. IMO power, room acoustics, speaker placement are all important. If the choice is between spending money on a better amplifier vis a vis spending money on a cable, i would go the amp route. Once you are settled on the electronics and speakers then one should experiment with cables.

What i was trying to say is if you experiment with a set of cables on System A and then try them on a similar level System B, you are likely to get very different results. Cables IME are extremely system dependent.

 

[Hiten]

Sorry to confuse things. What I am trying to say is....
The whole test would be on single most revealing digital system. Only power cords would be different. I think it would be helpful as I have already said the test would not be who is right or wrong. the blind test would be helpful to
1) get an answer to... do power cords make difference? Not blatant black and white yes and no. But getting to know things type of an answer.
2) If they do make difference. Various options one can have of different power cords. For ex. if difference is hardly noticeable should one spend pretty decent amount of more money ?
3) learning to match various power cord with the system. Price doesn't matter to this.
Regards
Parden me for logging on and off in the forum. As I am working and browsing at the same time. So if client comes in I have to pretend I am working.

 

[prem]

Hi Hiten i get what you are saying but those conclusions will only apply to that system on which you tried out the various cables. You cannot generalise based on that experiment. You can try your experiment on the top of the line DCS stack but when you try the same cords on say a top of the line Esoteric stack chances are the results will be different. This could be because the power supply designs would be different between the Esoteric and DCS.

 

[Hiten]

OK. I understand. Its kind of matching the cords with the system. Right ?

But I still think a test would be relevant and helpful atleast to know how much SQ difference is perceivable and price to the difference factor.
Regards