Pune HFV Meet 2010

[sonosphere]

Thanks. How do you rate the Norge 1000 dynamically & for soundstage vis a vis NAD? I am asking this to know whether I can save 15-20K and use for a DAC.

regards
Sridhar

Hi Sridhar,
The NAD 315 (@22k~) is the closest comparison to Norge 2060 (@8k~). Considering it's SQ is similar to NAD C320, it is better than Norge in all respects by 30% approx in my opinion. It's up to you whether you would want to spend 14k extra above 8k to get 30% improvement in SQ.
Regds,
Sonosphere

 

[sups]

One strong candidate is the Lithos Q10 system. Will be going to Mumbai for audition in the next week.

Regards
Sridhar

Hi Sridhar,

I have got excellent feedback about an year back from actual users of Q10 system. Will wait for your review.

Can you do me a favour by listeneing to their noa1 speakers as well and giving a feedback? They might have a NAD amp with them for auditioning.

--sups

 

[sonosphere]

DEMO# 4

The next demo involved something about which all of us had read a lot buzz but had nothing by way of direct experience. Normally ground-breaking products also come with a bank-breaking price. But this "thing" has literally brought Hi-Fi to the masses. Enough said... Gentlemen... for the first time in Pune...presenting the TOPPING 20 STEREO AMPLIFIER!

Thanks to Sups for getting Topping 20 amp and to Hubballi for the PSB Alpha B1 bookshelves.

Despite having read all the buzz about this "thing" (tough to visualise this as the regular 19" wide black-box of electronics), there was a odd mix of anxiety and curiosity as the Topping was being connected to Hubballi's PSB Alpha B1 bookshelves. In a way I feel sorry for Alpha B1's because what happened subseqently, when track after track was played... the crowd almost forgot the existence of B1's. All eyes (and ears of course!) were focussed on Topping as if a new bollywood starlet had entered the stage and stole away attention from established performers (in this case the B1's and Marantz CDP)

- If you think the assembled members had a tough time agreeing on tonal balance of a setup in previous demo's, see the summary below to know what is unanimous opinion. (I think I know now what "Neutral" means )
- If you thought a pocket transistor sized amp would produce similar sized sound, well times have changed.
- If you are wondering whats the fuss all about, see the Demo summary below.

- Topping 20 on top of rack (Too small to be seen?... see the closeup below)
- Marantz CDP below the Topping
- PSB Alpha B1 bookshelves perched on Yamaha FS

- Topping 20 posing with Roja (lucky dude!)

Apart from the summary I am compelled to add more description from my side, as the summary as I see it just doesn't convey the excitement that was present in room after this demo.

I was not so much surprised by the clarity of Topping (I am taking for granted that Alpha B1's were expected to be good*) as much I was by the fact that it was clear and distortion-free even at 90 dB (@ 2m). More by the fact that it took Tchaikovski's cresendo passage in its stride. And even more by the fact that the volume knob was at near saturation point (3'0clock position), but I didn't hear any audible clipping /distortion! I have a totally unbiased witness who can testify to this fact. see his pic below.

dB meter If you squint hard, You can spot this guy lying on coffee table in Demo# 3 pic.

It would be injustice to shower all the praise only on Topping 20, for a performance that was actually a team-effort. So here is my heartfelt appreciation for PSB Alpha B1 that have performed so transparently so as to allow an amp like Topping to shine thru. Being transparent is no mean feat in these days when many speakers try to win audience by being bass-heavy or treble-sparkling. Transparency /neutrality of B1's ensured that mood of each song was captured as the composer intended... no coloration added.

Request other attending members to chip in with there descripion of this demo.

 

[sups]

DEMO# 4
In a way I feel sorry for Alpha B1's because what happened subseqently, when track after track was played... the crowd almost forgot the existence of B1's. All eyes (and ears of course!) were focussed on Topping as if a new bollywood starlet had entered the stage and stole away attention from established performers (in this case the B1's and Marantz CDP)

Fully agreed sonosphere. The combination of Marantz CDP + TP20 + AlphaB1 performed very well, but it seems the credit went to TP20 alone. I can more surely say so because I paired TP20 earlier with Monitor Audio silver RS1 bookshelves with a NAD CD player in AVXcellence Pune. The result was just "ok". So, its the combination that did the trick. Before the demo started, I was quite sure that TP20 is too small to give a credible performance with Tchaikovski's cresendo passage. But, I was pleasantly surprised. Thanks again to all you people for making the meet happen.

I am just itching my head to hear how TP20 would perform with Usher S520, the feedback by our forum member physchotropic about this combination is already very good.

I am trying to get Cambridge Audio DVD99 (universal player with a built-in DAC) as source. Any comments? It costs about 14K.

 

[avidyarthy]

Proves our point (stamps it, infact) mentioned in the original Topping thread by Psychotropic !

Does it sound the 'death knell' for 'most' other budget / mid-fi / and even some high end amplifiers for home use ..... ?????

So, we now have good feedbacks on the match of Topping with Usher S520, CA S30, JBL Control One and PSB Alpha B1 .... thats a good choice for the newcomers to feast on .... without the back-breaking legwork that is usually put in

 

[sridhar-v]

Fully agreed sonosphere. The combination of Marantz CDP + TP20 + AlphaB1 performed very well, but it seems the credit went to TP20 alone. I can more surely say so because I paired TP20 earlier with Monitor Audio silver RS1 bookshelves with a NAD CD player in AVXcellence Pune. The result was just "ok". So, its the combination that did the trick. Before the demo started, I was quite sure that TP20 is too small to give a credible performance with Tchaikovski's cresendo passage. But, I was pleasantly surprised. Thanks again to all you people for making the meet happen.

I am just itching my head to hear how TP20 would perform with Usher S520, the feedback by our forum member physchotropic about this combination is already very good.

Sups has mentioned something that is now confirming some conclusions I have come to re speakers.

The Alpha speakers are using a 3rd. order crossover. They are 91Db sensitivity. For all the speakers I have auditioned I have found that ones with good crossovers have outshined all others. The JBL ES80 was mindblowingly good for the Tchaikovski's cresendo passage as it had 4th. order crossovers. Will be also check out the Lithos range.

Similarly Amit yesterday recommended the Paradigm Monitor 7 series as a neutral system. Guess what ?- it has 3rd order for the upper crossover & a 2nd. order for the lower. Some cost cutting.

Usher is not specifying their crossover details but it must be good.

And the lack of a crossover is why my Phillips single driver managed to hold its own to a satisfactory level.

Sridhar

 

[odyssey]

While speaker crossover is very key to the overall sound quality and reproduction, it has nothing to do with which order the xover is. The order just specifies the slope/steepness of the filter, really has nothing to do with quality. the slope is chosen on a variety of aspects - designers goal, natural response of the drivers, cabinet, etc You will find that in general the lower the xover, the easier to drive - given all other aspects are the same.

cheers

 

[venkatcr]

Music genere A requires "x"% of total energy to come from the bass frequencies. But the speaker construction is such that it is drawing 1.2"x" in the bass frequencies. That is why one feels that bass is boomy or warm. So possibly the amplification needs to be reduces selectively for the bass. One way is to use a graphic equaliser. Another way is to control the amplification of the bass portion of the speaker. Most of the speakers being made today have a higher emphasis on bass (sort of market demand?) and this tends to drown out the Mid frequencies. I noticed this when we were trying out the various speaker & amps combination. In the 1812 overture there are a lot of mid freq. details that were not coming through due to the higher bass response.

Actually this is a misnomer and a misconception.

A well designed speaker should not emphasize any frequency. It should be completely transparent. It should analyse the incoming signal, and simply distribute it to the correct drivers. If a particular frequency is being emphasized by the speaker, that means the crossover has not been designed well.

British manufacturers, unfortunately, emphasize a bit of low frequency in an attempt to make the system sound 'warm'. Canadian manufacturers, on the other hand, are more transparent, but many people complain that the results are bright.

Take your pick.

Cheers

 

[NetFreak]

A well designed speaker should not emphasis any frequency. It should be completely transparent.

For that, you would have to use studio monitors. No speaker, regardless of the design principle, has a completely flat frequency response; all speakers color the sound to some degree. Monitor speakers are assumed to be as free as possible from coloration.

Studio monitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[askii2]

Studio monitors always use much stronger bass drivers to be able to have excellent control on lower frequences and not let the driver be dominated by air in the container. Studio monitors are also likely to face unfinished hence harsh audio.

A consumer grade speaker uses lower strength bass drivers for the same rated power and hence likely to have lower frequences "linger" a bit.

I have an experience of a listening the same CD at a professional studio and same date at home on my Yamaha FS. I liked the later. The studio monitors were more accurate and they had a well-defined low-end cut-off. I found them taut. I did find low frequencies "linger" a bit on the Yamahas, which I liked more than they being cut-off. I think higher grade consumer speakers shouldn't have this "lingering" behavior.

 

[sridhar-v]

Did a hurried audition of the HK 3490 amp.

Source was a Cyrus CDP with co-ax digital out going to the digital in of the amp. I.e. the dac of the amp was in use. As is my liking all music was played soft - must be arounf 70 dB. (Sonosphere I miss your unbiased witness)

The first song was Roja - yeh haseen vadiya. Speakers were Sonus Faber Liuto floorstanders. The amp could drive these with ease. Soundstge & depth were amazing. So was clarity & seperation.

The next song was 1812 Overture - the cresendo. For this I switched to Revel Ultima Studio2. Amp was at -30Db. THe amp handeled this track with ease. Good soundstage, depth clarity & seperation. During the cannons part I could hear the church bell clearly.

I am mighty impressed. Looks like I have found my amp. Now need to get down to collecting outstanding money from my clients.

Sridhar

 

[sonosphere]

Did a hurried audition of the HK 3490 amp.

Source was a Cyrus CDP with co-ax digital out going to the digital in of the amp. I.e. the dac of the amp was in use. As is my liking all music was played soft - must be arounf 70 dB. (Sonosphere I miss your unbiased witness)

The first song was Roja - yeh haseen vadiya. Speakers were Sonus Faber Liuto floorstanders. The amp could drive these with ease. Soundstge & depth were amazing. So was clarity & seperation.

The next song was 1812 Overture - the cresendo. For this I switched to Revel Ultima Studio2. Amp was at -30Db. THe amp handeled this track with ease. Good soundstage, depth clarity & seperation. During the cannons part I could hear the church bell clearly.

I am mighty impressed. Looks like I have found my amp. Now need to get down to collecting outstanding money from my clients.

Sridhar

Hi Sridhar,
Compared to Marantz CDP + B&W 804s demo, how did the internal DAC of 3490 sound in terms of clarity of detail?
Regards,
Sonosphere

 

[sridhar-v]

Sonosphere

I would say that the detailing & clarity were as good as the Marantz CDP being used as DAC. I would say that soundstage & reverberations (on the roja song) were possibly better. However it was an extremely rushed audition as I was pressed for time. Did only these 2 songs. But I was mighty impressed.

Another thing would be that I was listening at my preferred low volume so the bass does not overpower the rest. What portion was contributed by the speakers? I could not form an opinion. But it was very clear to me that the amp was up to the mark.

Sridhar

 

[sonosphere]

Bold highlights are mine

Proves our point (stamps it, infact) mentioned in the original Topping thread by Psychotropic !

Does it sound the 'death knell' for 'most' other budget / mid-fi / and even some high end amplifiers for home use ..... ?????
So, we now have good feedbacks on the match of Topping with Usher S520, CA S30, JBL Control One and PSB Alpha B1 .... thats a good choice for the newcomers to feast on .... without the back-breaking legwork that is usually put in

Dear avidyarthy,
This may sound like a little dampner on the Topping euphoria...

I don't think the "death knell" part would affect any amp except the Norge-2060 price-range of amps to "some extent". Web reports indicate that Topping would shine only with selected Bookshelf speakers. I haven't read anybody say that Topping trounced NAD 315 /Marantz 6001 /CA 340 grade of entry level amps. Hence these will maintain their customers in market.

Regarding Topping's nearest rival... the Norge-2060
Topping is slightly better than the Norge-2060 in clarity and neutrality, however the 2060 is not limited to 90dB sensitivity bookshelves, and it can deliver quite a BANG when it comes to bass (witnessed when the drums came on really hard in "Hey you", during demo# 1). Topping didn't match that BANG in bass during its demo (even though the snare drum gave the treble-bite).

So people who end up liking speakers with 86dB sensitivity will have 2060 as their only VFM choice, plus people who intend to upgrade to "hungry" bookshelves later, know that Topping will not drive them, and most likely will go for 2060 as first amp, and the 4k price difference between Topping and 2060 wouldn't deter them.

Rather than sounding "Death knell" for others, Topping has created a new segment i.e 4k Topping amp + 3k DVDP + 10K "selected" Bookshelves = a decent entry level at 17k.

The fact that Topping amp can do justice to Marantz CDP quality, at 4k, is the miracle that's got people amazed, but IMHO this miracle is not going to un-seat the established amps.

Regds,
Sonosphere

 

[sonosphere]

Better late than never .
High time to see who all attended this meet. Hopefully I have most of them included in the pics that follow...

From left to right:
Hubballi (grey stripes T-shirt), Shridhar-V, Sonosphere, Askii2 (besides Sonosphere), Sachin (sitting on floor), Sarvesh.Sharma

(ID's kept same as HFV. I prefer to keep my HFV identity in this alternative life )

 

[sonosphere]

From left to right:
Sachin, Askii2, Jaggervm, Vivekam, Sridhar-V, Viki, Amit (AV Xellence)

 

[sonosphere]

From Left to right:
Viki's son (blurred in action!), Viki, Ontherocks (yellow T-shirt), Sups, Askii2, Hubballi, Sridhar-V (sitting in front)

 

[sonosphere]

Wow! that was something!... talk between Sachin, Viki, Amit

From left to right:
Vivekam (Red T-shirt), Sachin, Viki, Askii2 (sitting), Amit, Amit's colleague from AVX, Jaggervm, and lest I forget... Yummy food on table. Food for soul and food for body, complete diet!!

 

[sonosphere]

From left to right:
Sachin, Viki, Amit

 

[sonosphere]

Back to demo...

DEMO# 5


As posted earlier, the demo sequence was planned to be from entry-level setups to higher end. However the way things happened subsequently the next demo directly went to the "Numero Uno" combo, comprising of B&W 804s, looking at scale of demos, imagine the difference... the previous demo had tiny BS Alpha B1 driven by even tinier Topping amp and the next had B&W 804s floorstander driven by a muscle-amp!, that literally brought a huge orchestra in the middle of room.

After Topping demo, what-next? question threw up Sachin's combo in picture. Sachin had two "almost Vintage" BS speakers, one a KEF, the other a Wharfedale (I forget the exact model nos... Sachin pls post the same). These were to be driven by, again, a vintage amp i.e Luxman L-5 (60w rms per channel) and the only DAC in the meet, the Beresford Caiman.

Sachin connected the KEF BS, and the demo started. Midway through the demo it was noticed that some distorted sound was coming whenever there was a bass heavy passage. After a little bit of investigation, it was diagnosed to the way the woofer was screwed on to the cabinet. There was no point to demo a distorted speaker so the speaker was changed to Wharfedale. However we had trouble stabilising the Wharfedales on Askii2's yamaha mini-floorstanders. So the Wharfedales were also cancelled, and Sachin decided to connect the B&W 804s to rest of his chain. (Actually Amit (AV Xellence) had already hooked up the B&W's with Arcam CD7 & Cyrus Pre-power combo).

From the very first song, it was evident that the combo was a different league. It was expected of B&W, the surprise was that a vintage Luxman amp was doing justice to B&W's. Other reassuring discovery was that Beresford Caiman can be a deserving member of a hi-end setup. More details in the demo summary below.

Again the summary is insufficient to explain the drama that unfolded...
When I said earlier regarding "different league" the first indicator of that was the soundstage. All of a sudden we were no longer hearing music "little around the speaker", the music seemed to be performed from far left to far right and also way behind in depth. No wonder you see majority observing the "Big" soundstage. The combo sounded neutral to most. The realism aided by neutrality was made evident more so by the way each instrument-sound had it's individual sound clearly defined even in a crowded mix.

The bass guitars, drums, guitars, vocals string-sections, each seemed to be playing with enough clarity and nuances even in a crowded orchestra as if you were hearing their solo recording. IMO the most remarkable part was the nuances on bass instruments, the combo captured dramatic hits of drums as well as the soft decay as the drum-skin lingers to silence. Doing this on treble-end percussive instruments is being achieved even by BS spkrs, but doing this on bass side needs real muscles ALL ACROSS the chain. This is what differentiates men from boys, as far as spkrs and amps are concerned! The crowning glory of performance was Tchaikovsky's crecsendo passage, complete with throbbing real canon shots.

B&W 804s

From left to right:
Luxman L-5 amp, Beresford Caiman sitting on top of Luxman, Cyrus 2 Pre, Cyrus 2 Power below the pre.

Due to time contraints we couldn't hear the B&W's with Amit's other gems (the Arcam CDP, Cyrus Pre-power... we had luck with Arcam though, paired magically with Ushers... more later)

Request attending members to chip in with their comments on this combo.