Redoing MY HT

Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 & 12.2 Speakers

Love4sound

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Dear FM’s

I have posted my xtz 12.17 for sale. Reason behind is I am planing to setup a HT that has a soft sound stage vs a loud and dynamic sound stage. Was thinking of going dual sealed 10 inc subs like the Rel HT1003. Main reason is Tinitus due to minimal hearing loss cause of loud noise damage. I thought dual sealed subs and listen at low volumes. But again it got me thinking loud noise damage mostly must be due to the high frequencies compared to low frequencies and when I measured the LF it was at 90 dB at 18-50hz and beyond 50hz 90-100 max which isn’t loud enough for ear damage.So I am thinking to go dual xtz 12.17 as planned but change my speakers or add a good PA. Before I was listening at 75-80db master volume. Now my goal is to watch at 55-60db. At my current set up only the dynamic scenes are loud enough at 55-60 dB master volume and dialogues are not audible at all. So what can I do to improve this? Should I get high sensitivity speakers and add a good PA. Normally I audition and decide but given the current condition I don’t want to audition as it will expose my ears to a lot of loud noise again. Going to re do based on expert opinions alone.
 
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Nitin K

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Now my goal is to watch at 55-60db. At my current set up only the dynamic scenes are loud enough at 55-60 dB master volume and dialogues are not audible at all. So what can I do to improve this? Should I get high sensitivity speakers and add a good PA. Normally I audition and decide but given the current condition I don’t want to audition as it will will expose my ears to a lot of loud noise again. Going to re do based on expert opinions alone.
Hi Navin,

To increase the dialogue clarity , how about increasing the center channel level in the receiver.
 
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drkrack

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But again it got me thinking loud noise damage mostly must be due to the high frequencies compared to low frequencies and when I measured the LF it was at 90 dB at 18-50hz and beyond 50hz 90-100 max which isn’t loud enough for ear damage.
Constant loudness above 85db is enough to cause ear damage. Though the tinnitus itself has a freq range of ~3khz usually , it doesn't mean it can be caused by only high frequency sound. In fact most commonly by loud explosion, fireworks and constant industrial noises are the culprit. So its the mixed frequency and suddenness of the dynamic that prove to be damaging.

thought dual sealed subs and listen at low volumes. B
I Get a headache due to Sealed Subwoofers, I can't tolerate them for a longer duration. I have tried it with multiple brands of sealed subwoofer and they all have the same effect. The sound pressure created by sealed subwoofer is quite high so they appear quite dynamic but damaging in the long run. Luckily this sensitivity to sealed subwoofer is not universal but they're not advisable in case of any sort of hearing problems.
You can see that in this review.


planned but change my speakers or add a good PA. Before I was listening at 75-80db master volume.
PA speakers are designed for loudness in mind and you won't get the refinement of audiophile speakers ; I'd suggest you stick with warm sounding HT speakers and use dynamic EQ & dynamic Volume in AVR if possible.

Overall try to reduce your mean listening levels to 65db or below, with peaks not crossing above 80db, you'll be fine with your ears. Use adequate sound proofing to reduce the baseline noise of your listening room, so that you can comfortably listen to your system at low levels. Good sensitive speakers with higher amplification power will help you maintain the fun even at low volumes.

Stay Safe
 
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Love4sound

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Constant loudness above 85db is enough to cause ear damage. Though the tinnitus itself has a freq range of ~3khz usually , it doesn't mean it can be caused by only high frequency sound. In fact most commonly by loud explosion, fireworks and constant industrial noises are the culprit. So its the mixed frequency and suddenness of the dynamic that prove to be damaging.


I Get a headache due to Sealed Subwoofers, I can't tolerate them for a longer duration. I have tried it with multiple brands of sealed subwoofer and they all have the same effect. The sound pressure created by sealed subwoofer is quite high so they appear quite dynamic but damaging in the long run. Luckily this sensitivity to sealed subwoofer is not universal but they're not advisable in case of any sort of hearing problems.
You can see that in this review.



PA speakers are designed for loudness in mind and you won't get the refinement of audiophile speakers ; I'd suggest you stick with warm sounding HT speakers and use dynamic EQ & dynamic Volume in AVR if possible.

Overall try to reduce your mean listening levels to 65db or below, with peaks not crossing above 80db, you'll be fine with your ears. Use adequate sound proofing to reduce the baseline noise of your listening room, so that you can comfortably listen to your system at low levels. Good sensitive speakers with higher amplification power will help you maintain the fun even at low volumes.

Stay Safe
Thanks and yeah my target is to maintain master volume at 60-65db. I am using dynamic EQ but still at 65 sound is weak. May be I’ll try upgrading to a good center speaker
 
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efernand1

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I think the Dalis have low sensitivity and hence cant get much out of them, manually you may need to increase the level for dialogue.

See other speakers which have high sensitivity and can deliver a good spectrum of frequencies...those should be ideal for you.
 
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Love4sound

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I think the Dalis have low sensitivity and hence cant get much out of them, manually you may need to increase the level for dialogue.

See other speakers which have high sensitivity and can deliver a good spectrum of frequencies...those should be ideal for you.
Yeah but can’t say very low,86-87 I think. At usual levels 75-80db I had no issues. Now that I am using at 60-65 dB it’s very low. So I just need help in setting up a system that will not affect dialogues at 60-65db
 
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OM_2K19

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Now my goal is to watch at 55-60db. At my current set up only the dynamic scenes are loud enough at 55-60 dB master volume and dialogues are not audible at all. So what can I do to improve this?
Setting the Dynamic Volume to Light in Audessy really improved the dialogue intelligibility for me. Give it a try.

1618695659996.png
 
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sidvee

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The sound pressure created by sealed subwoofer is quite high so they appear quite dynamic but damaging in the long run. Luckily this sensitivity to sealed subwoofer is not universal but they're not advisable in case of any sort of hearing problems.
I am not an expert Dr., but my understanding is that the sound pressure levels (SPL) of a ported sub is more than a sealed sub.
Some statements from sub manufacturers and others:

SVS:
"Dynamic Output Limits in the Deepest Octaves
With each successively deeper octave, cone excursion quadruples in a sealed subwoofer in order to maintain the same sound pressure level as a ported subwoofer. In addition, the equalization required to tailor and optimize the quasi-anechoic frequency response consumes amplifier power. As a result, a sealed subwoofer will typically have considerably lower dynamic output limits than a ported subwoofer in the same family/price range."
Kicker:
"Ported enclosure: These are also called bass reflex enclosures. Ported boxes can be different sizes and it the size will have a great effect on overall sound, performance, and durability of the woofer. They have one or more ports or slots in the enclosure to allow the rear sound wave to couple with the front sound wave of the speaker for greater output. The lower bass response will roll off at 24dB/octave, twice as fast as a sealed enclosure. Because the rear sound wave is allowed to couple with the front sound wave from the speaker, they will have an increased output around the tuning frequency. This increase in bass response makes them very popular where more bass is required such as hip hop and rap recordings."
Audioholics:

Where sealed subwoofers are relatively simple devices, ported subwoofers add a bit of complication to the mixture, i.e. the port. On the upside, porting augments system output at the vent’s resonant frequency, which extends the subwoofer’s response and allows for substantially more output capability at the tuning point relative to a comparable sealed subwoofer.

On a personal level, for any given high bass scenario in movies, for me the ported sub causes more discomfort in terms of listening fatigue than sealed subs. Of-course in direct comparision the ported sub appears more impressive as it sounds louder - Anyways just my experience - I may be wrong. Also in a high bass scenario I tend to feel a sealed sub more than hear it, i.e; it is a more visceral bass rather than just auditory.
Cheers,
Sid

 
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OM_2K19

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I am not an expert Dr., but my understanding is that the sound pressure levels (SPL) of a ported sub is more than a sealed sub.
Some statements from sub manufacturers and others:

SVS:
"Dynamic Output Limits in the Deepest Octaves
With each successively deeper octave, cone excursion quadruples in a sealed subwoofer in order to maintain the same sound pressure level as a ported subwoofer. In addition, the equalization required to tailor and optimize the quasi-anechoic frequency response consumes amplifier power. As a result, a sealed subwoofer will typically have considerably lower dynamic output limits than a ported subwoofer in the same family/price range."
Kicker:
"Ported enclosure: These are also called bass reflex enclosures. Ported boxes can be different sizes and it the size will have a great effect on overall sound, performance, and durability of the woofer. They have one or more ports or slots in the enclosure to allow the rear sound wave to couple with the front sound wave of the speaker for greater output. The lower bass response will roll off at 24dB/octave, twice as fast as a sealed enclosure. Because the rear sound wave is allowed to couple with the front sound wave from the speaker, they will have an increased output around the tuning frequency. This increase in bass response makes them very popular where more bass is required such as hip hop and rap recordings."
Audioholics:

Where sealed subwoofers are relatively simple devices, ported subwoofers add a bit of complication to the mixture, i.e. the port. On the upside, porting augments system output at the vent’s resonant frequency, which extends the subwoofer’s response and allows for substantially more output capability at the tuning point relative to a comparable sealed subwoofer.

On a personal level, for any given high bass scenario in movies, for me the ported sub causes more discomfort in terms of listening fatigue than sealed subs. Of-course in direct comparision the ported sub appears more impressive as it sounds louder - Anyways just my experience - I may be wrong. Also in a high bass scenario I tend to feel a sealed sub more than hear it, i.e; it is a more visceral bass rather than just auditory.
Cheers,
Sid


In addition, this is another good article on Ported vs Sealed Subwoofer.
 
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Love4sound

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Setting the Dynamic Volume to Light in Audessy really improved the dialogue intelligibility for me. Give it a try.

View attachment 56367
Yeah I have tried dynamic volume. It does improve the dialogues.But the issue is it adjusts the difference in loud and low volumes. It applies some compression which was good at some scenes and felt underwhelming at certain scenes for me.
Have you done any room treatment or placed diffusers ??? If not just do it to improve a lot more than current one. I have heard the same at Ragu's place ( @liverpool_for_life ) and it work as intended.
Mine is a very small room and not much space for treatment. I have bought some acoustics foams from aural exchange that does both absorption and diffusion which I plan to install on first reflection points.
 
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drkrack

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I am not an expert Dr., but my understanding is that the sound pressure levels (SPL) of a ported sub is more than a sealed sub.
Some statements from sub manufacturers and others:

SVS:
"Dynamic Output Limits in the Deepest Octaves
With each successively deeper octave, cone excursion quadruples in a sealed subwoofer in order to maintain the same sound pressure level as a ported subwoofer. In addition, the equalization required to tailor and optimize the quasi-anechoic frequency response consumes amplifier power. As a result, a sealed subwoofer will typically have considerably lower dynamic output limits than a ported subwoofer in the same family/price range."
Kicker:
"Ported enclosure: These are also called bass reflex enclosures. Ported boxes can be different sizes and it the size will have a great effect on overall sound, performance, and durability of the woofer. They have one or more ports or slots in the enclosure to allow the rear sound wave to couple with the front sound wave of the speaker for greater output. The lower bass response will roll off at 24dB/octave, twice as fast as a sealed enclosure. Because the rear sound wave is allowed to couple with the front sound wave from the speaker, they will have an increased output around the tuning frequency. This increase in bass response makes them very popular where more bass is required such as hip hop and rap recordings."
Audioholics:

Where sealed subwoofers are relatively simple devices, ported subwoofers add a bit of complication to the mixture, i.e. the port. On the upside, porting augments system output at the vent’s resonant frequency, which extends the subwoofer’s response and allows for substantially more output capability at the tuning point relative to a comparable sealed subwoofer.

On a personal level, for any given high bass scenario in movies, for me the ported sub causes more discomfort in terms of listening fatigue than sealed subs. Of-course in direct comparision the ported sub appears more impressive as it sounds louder - Anyways just my experience - I may be wrong. Also in a high bass scenario I tend to feel a sealed sub more than hear it, i.e; it is a more visceral bass rather than just auditory.
Cheers,
Sid

I meant the Suddenness of the Loudness is higher on the sealed subwoofer. They're usually Faster reacting ones compared to the ported ones. Loudness per se is usually matched to individual preferences or by Audessey etc.

Yeah I have tried dynamic volume. It does improve the dialogues.But the issue is it adjusts the difference in loud and low volumes.
Yes those sudden changes in the Sound loudness is responsible for worsening of the damage AFAIK. There's a concept of hearing rest as initial treatment whenever someone develops tinnitus secondary to loud sounds like explosion etc. I'm not a ENT expert either but there are multiple causes for tinnitus and hearing rest is advised for temporary tinnitus secondary to loud noise.
 
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sidvee

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I meant the Suddenness of the Loudness is higher on the sealed subwoofer. They're usually Faster reacting ones compared to the ported ones. Loudness per se is usually matched to individual preferences or by Audessey etc.
Yes I concur with this, speed and impact is higher with sealed.
Cheers,
Sid
 
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prateekatasniya

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Low frequencies at that SPL don't cause hearing damage.
It's the frequency range of the human voice which when played at high SPL causes hearing damage.
I guess your hearing damage might be due to something else and not your home theatre use..
 
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Love4sound

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Low frequencies at that SPL don't cause hearing damage.
It's the frequency range of the human voice which when played at high SPL causes hearing damage.
I guess your hearing damage might be due to something else and not your home theatre use..
Based on my test results doctor said symptoms of over use of ear phones meaning listening to noise for an long period of time without rest to ears. During lock down I was spending 3-5 hours at a stretch on a daily basis,playing heavy action scenes to test and experiment different subs. So in my case it must be over use of my HT is what the doctor told. 70-90 dB is fine and safe but daily 3-5 hours and that to heavy action scenes is not advisable is what the doctor told me.
 
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prateekatasniya

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Based on my test results doctor said symptoms of over use of ear phones meaning listening to noise for an long period of time without rest to ears. During lock down I was spending 3-5 hours at a stretch on a daily basis,playing heavy action scenes to test and experiment different subs. So in my case it must be over use of my HT is what the doctor told. 70-90 dB is fine and safe but daily 3-5 hours and that to heavy action scenes is not advisable is what the doctor told me.
Yeah.. that's correct.. with such usage its possible.. but the bass isn't the culprit
 
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Love4sound

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Yeah.. that's correct.. with such usage its possible.. but the bass isn't the culprit
Yeah so I am planning to go dual xtz 12.17 as planned but I won’t be playing at usual 75-80db master volume. I am targeting 60db but with my current set up dialogues are very weak and I need to figure out some solution. May be investing in a good center speaker will do the trick.Man this hobby even if u want to listen at low volumes u need to spend more hahaha. At 75-80db m quite satisfied with the current dali zensor vocal speaker but at 60db it’s nah.
 
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sidvee

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Please take care, ultimately our hearing matters a lot for this hobby. I am no doctor, but kindly do take some time off and rest your ears - this is a stressful time for all of us, let us be safe. We have a lifetime if front of us to enjoy these pleasures.
Cheers,
Sid
 
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Love4sound

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Please take care, ultimately our hearing matters a lot for this hobby. I am no doctor, but kindly do take some time off and rest your ears - this is a stressful time for all of us, let us be safe. We have a lifetime if front of us to enjoy these pleasures.
Cheers,
Sid
Thanks and yeah it’s been 4 months since I used my HT. Acting purely based on my doctor advice
 
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