Request help - Solution of protection for AVR and TV

[warrior047]

Hello all,
I have to install the AV equipment ASAP and need to have some fool proof solution at the earliest. I am from Hyderabad, Telangana, India.
I have gone through multiple threads and got some idea. Based on that proposing few options as below for your valuable guidance.

My new AV Gear:
Monitor Audio Silver 5.1 System customized
Sub - yet to buy (Thinking of Rel HT once i have some bucks)
Denon X4700H - power consupmtion says 710 W

Current Power protection i have:
An 5 year old Amaron Pure Sine wave Hi backup UPS 880 VA capacity helping currently with my computer, lights and fans and guess this wont suffice my AVR

My current power flow as below for TV, Computer, Old Soundbar (Not the above AV Gear which is yet to be installed)
MAINS -> UPS -> 6A Belkin Surge protector

Query:
In my place where i need to install this, I have a facility of 16A for a stabilizer. Am really confused with all the options. Pls suggest what i need to do out of below:
1. Some suggested Online UPS as the best solution to have direct mains power that is crucial to AVR. If so, is it something i can buy only for AVR and TV? 1KVA is sufficient?
2. I also read to use Servo stabilizer. Is this different from normal TV stabilizer? Can i use normal TV Stabilizer of higher capacity for AVR and TV alone? If servo is different, what should i use? Will it impact the sound quality and reduce AVR performance over long run as many claimed?
3. Some suggested Main line stabilizer. Dont know as i use respective Belkin power surge protectors (Regularly) for all needs so far except TV, speakers alone - Is mainline stabilizer really needed?
4. Some other vendor recommended Power conditioner. Its also expensive. Am not sure if that alone helps with my AVR? Dont want to try this option as it seems

What is the best solution you might advise? At my place, i have decent sudden power cuts, voltage fluctuations etc.,

Option 1 - MAINS -> New Online UPS -> AVR & TV (Dont prefer due to noise issues if its ok)
Option 2 - MAINS -> Current 880 VA Pure sine wave UPS -> Current 6A Belkin Surge protector -> AVR & TV
Option 3 - MAINS -> Current 880 VA Pure sine wave UPS -> New 16A Regular TV 2 KVA Stabilizer (Krykard 3 KVA Servo Stabalizer or anything) -> AVR & TV
Option 4 - MAINS -> New 4 KVA Pure Sine Wave UPS -> 6A Belkin Surge protector -> AVR & TV
Option 5 - MAINS -> New 4 KVA Pure Sine Wave UPS -> New 16A Regular TV 3 KVA Stabilizer -> AVR & TV
Option 6 - MAINS -> New 4 KVA Pure Sine Wave UPS -> Direct power to AVR
Option 7 - MAINS -> New 16A Regular TV 2 KVA Stabilizer (Krykard 3 KVA Servo Stabalizer or anything else) -> AVR & TV

Sorry for the long thread but am not that technical person when it comes to power needs.

 

[Nitin K]

Hello all,
I have to install the AV equipment ASAP and need to have some fool proof solution at the earliest. I am from Hyderabad, Telangana, India.
I have gone through multiple threads and got some idea. Based on that proposing few options as below for your valuable guidance.

My new AV Gear:
Monitor Audio Silver 5.1 System customized
Sub - yet to buy (Thinking of Rel HT once i have some bucks)
Denon X4700H - power consupmtion says 710 W

Current Power protection i have:
An 5 year old Amaron Pure Sine wave Hi backup UPS 880 VA capacity helping currently with my computer, lights and fans and guess this wont suffice my AVR

My current power flow as below for TV, Computer, Old Soundbar (Not the above AV Gear which is yet to be installed)
MAINS -> UPS -> 6A Belkin Surge protector

Query:
In my place where i need to install this, I have a facility of 16A for a stabilizer. Am really confused with all the options. Pls suggest what i need to do out of below:
1. Some suggested Online UPS as the best solution to have direct mains power that is crucial to AVR. If so, is it something i can buy only for AVR and TV? 1KVA is sufficient?
2. I also read to use Servo stabilizer. Is this different from normal TV stabilizer? Can i use normal TV Stabilizer of higher capacity for AVR and TV alone? If servo is different, what should i use? Will it impact the sound quality and reduce AVR performance over long run as many claimed?
3. Some suggested Main line stabilizer. Dont know as i use respective Belkin power surge protectors (Regularly) for all needs so far except TV, speakers alone - Is mainline stabilizer really needed?
4. Some other vendor recommended Power conditioner. Its also expensive. Am not sure if that alone helps with my AVR? Dont want to try this option as it seems

What is the best solution you might advise? At my place, i have decent sudden power cuts, voltage fluctuations etc.,

Option 1 - MAINS -> New Online UPS -> AVR & TV (Dont prefer due to noise issues if its ok)
Option 2 - MAINS -> Current 880 VA Pure sine wave UPS -> Current 6A Belkin Surge protector -> AVR & TV
Option 3 - MAINS -> Current 880 VA Pure sine wave UPS -> New 16A Regular TV 2 KVA Stabilizer (Krykard 3 KVA Servo Stabalizer or anything) -> AVR & TV
Option 4 - MAINS -> New 4 KVA Pure Sine Wave UPS -> 6A Belkin Surge protector -> AVR & TV
Option 5 - MAINS -> New 4 KVA Pure Sine Wave UPS -> New 16A Regular TV 3 KVA Stabilizer -> AVR & TV
Option 6 - MAINS -> New 4 KVA Pure Sine Wave UPS -> Direct power to AVR
Option 7 - MAINS -> New 16A Regular TV 2 KVA Stabilizer (Krykard 3 KVA Servo Stabalizer or anything else) -> AVR & TV

Sorry for the long thread but am not that technical person when it comes to power needs.

Hi Warrior047,

I am not an expert on the power management side. FM Subbu68 may be able to clarify more. But the power consumption needs for your Denon setup is very similar to mine as my Marantz 7011 avr also consumes approx the same wattage. Apart from that I have a Marantz cd6006, Pioneer bdp 180 and the Rel HT 1508. All these are comfortably handled by the Krykard 3KVA servo stabilizer to which the Barracuda power extension box from Sound Foundations is connected which has the emi/Rf filters and surge protection inbuilt. The led 65 inch TV is on Vguard digi 220.
Pls don't go for any Vguard stabilizer for your main gear as it is not accurate and may not be able to handle the entire load. If you feel you need more headroom for an integrated amp for stereo in the future which could also be a power amp for your HT front speakers then 5KVA should be more than enough with a lot of headroom. Both Vertex and Krykard servo stabilizers are good with vertex being more favoured in the audio/video community.
I had enquired with SVS and Rel customer care too that the subs don't need full power as mentioned in the catalogue at normal volumes and they peak only during certain scenes depending on the volume level. Hence at present for me 3kva was sufficient.

I have no idea about online ups and mainline stabilizer where other FM's can chip in. For us in Mumbai, power cuts are rare hence ups is not required.

Regards,
Nitin

 

[Subbu68]

@Nitin K - thank you for the reference elated

@warrior047

If you do not have power cuts or can tolerate them I would not recommend UPS.

UPS whatever they can (pure sine wave, ultra pure sine wave what not) cannot give the same purity as the power system network and rotating generators behind them. The electronics inside UPS or inverters generate a lot of harmonics that would heat up the load connected to it. You could easily relate to the sound of fans when they run on UPS and on mains. Unless the manufacturer can guarantee like less than 2-3 % harmonics UPS could affect the life of equipment. So try to keep off.

Yes, these days we have a lot of renewables and they do a DC to AC conversion and some one on the HVF may argue that these cause harmonics. There are regulations, codes and electrical mechanisms to control them.

That said, Nitin has related his experience and I could not concur more. However, your regular 6A socket cannot supply more than 1440VA or 1.44kVA power. Most equipment may give a current rating behind the chassis. Add them up and multiply by 240V to reach the VA. I would calculate the total load and add a factor of 150%. If it is within 1440 VA it is safe to use the regular socket. If you are going to have a 3kVA servo or other stabilizers you'd need a 16A socket or separate line from the distribution board. Have a 16A MCB over there. I have a very stable power supply where I live so could not give more information on using stabilizers.

Make sure to power all equipment from same point and one earth connection common to all your AV gear. If you connect different equipment to different sockets and there are earth connections, these could set up annoying earth loops and hums that are not easy to trace.

As for surge protection if you have direct connection from an electric post to your house it is best to have one given the lightning activities there. Other surges like switching surges don't matter in residential settings or even at higher voltages (not going too technical). A good surge protection device aka SPD would be at the distribution board - like circuit breaker if you are keen to rewire the place and a local protection for AV gear like those Belkin ones.

If you have a cable network at your place you could be a little more relaxed with a local surge protector for the AV. Any lightning strike on power network will be curbed by surge arrestor before your local transformer.

However, please note 6A is the load capacity of these extension boards not the surge protector. So please choose one to suit the total load. Look for 3 line surge protection (it has a line to neutral, line to earth and neutral to earth surge protector inside) and with around 1000 Joule surge energy capability.

Hope this helps

 

[Nitin K]

Most welcome Subbu. You are the qualified & knowledgeable person in this field where people like us are laymen & have a lot to learn from you'll. Your guidance will help others immensely.

Regards,
Nitin

 

[Subbu68]

Missed something.

Using the existing UPS if you need to and if the total load is within it's capacity should not be an issue. But a 2kVA or 3kVA servo after that UPS will not add anything to it in terms of capacity as the 880VA is the limiting factor.

@Nitin K an online UPS always connects the load to the inverter so there is no interruption (in fact this is a UPS in real terms) while an off line UPS connects load to Mains normally and switches to inverter on a power failure.

 

[Subbu68]

Most welcome Subbu. You are the qualified & knowledgeable person in this field where people like us are laymen & have a lot to learn from you'll. Your guidance will help others immensely.

Regards,
Nitin

Happy to help within the limits of my knowledge.

I must admit I am also not fool proof - for Navin's case of unbalanced voltages to Earth had to take help from my colleagues and contacts in the utility. Maybe can easily digest the "language".

 

[Nitin K]

@Nitin K an online UPS always connects the load to the inverter so there is no interruption (in fact this is a UPS in real terms) while an off line UPS connects load to Mains normally and switches to inverter on a power failure.

Thanks a lot for the clarification which means in an offline UPS there may be a miniscule delay while switching to the inverter ? Also great you mentioned about the 16 A wall socket for the stabilizer connection which I forgot to mention which the OP can take note of.

 

[Subbu68]

Thanks a lot for the clarification which means in an offline UPS there may be miniscule delay while switching to the inverter ?

The static switch operation time - it could be a few millisecond. With the huge capacitors inside I believe most AV devices should ride through that. Early days when household inverters came in, they had those relays to change over - easily half a second that is huge in electrical terms. But these were "gold" I believe, as they had proper isolation transformers inside to keep harmonics low.

As I said, I have very stable, interruption free supply here so never had a chance to "taste" a UPS.

 

[warrior047]

Thank you both for responding but i guess i really am a noob. At my place, Power cuts do happen from time to time and also experience voltage fluctuations. Mine is a flat and not independent house.

Based on your updates, does it mean i have to go with a stabilizer or so? Even i am skeptical with Online UPS due to the possible noise issues.

Can i just buy a servo stabilizer and give connection from direct Mains without inverter and connect all the equipment to AVR and TV?
My current UPS inverter is just limited to 880 VA and I have other lights, fans and computer as well to fill in. Will definitely need a 2+KVA or even 3-4 KVS power conditioning or something.

I do have facilitated a 16A power supply in my TV unit which is not near the MAINS. If this is the case, can i use 3 KVA inverter to feed the stabilizer as well or we can skip the stabilizer if we give direct Inverter supply from Mains? At my place, power does go regularly.

 

[Love4sound]

@Nitin K - thank you for the reference elated

@warrior047

If you do not have power cuts or can tolerate them I would not recommend UPS.

Even in cases where back up is not required I feel a line interactive UPS can act as a good power conditioning unit since the backup battery is always engaged between the input AC and the output AC. The electrical power will go through a conversion to DC and then back to AC which will remove all the noise. Based on my recent fiasco I feel an isolation transformer paired with a surge protection unit with high/low voltage cutoff is all you need for protection and power conditioning. My vertex Servo stab only protected itself and not the equipment’s connected to it and I don’t blame it cause it can only provide voltage stabilisation and high/low voltage cut off. Some ups do come with isolation transformer inbuilt which should be a good investment for folks who are keen on getting an effecting device

 

[Subbu68]

Even in cases where back up is not required I feel a line interactive UPS can act as a good power conditioning unit since the backup battery is always engaged between the input AC and the output AC. The electrical power will go through a conversion to DC and then back to AC which will remove all the noise.

Not that way.

The backup battery only ensures continuity of supply. The conversion of DC to AC is what causes the noise or harmonics. Good filters at output stage will filter most, still is not as good as a rotating machine. For input to meet the regulatory requirements good manufacturers provide EMI filters so that the UPS does not feedback any harmonics back to the system or limit to the allowed amount.

 

[Love4sound]

Not that way.

The backup battery only ensures continuity of supply. The conversion of DC to AC is what causes the noise or harmonics. Good filters at output stage will filter most, still is not as good as a rotating machine. For input to meet the regulatory requirements good manufacturers provide EMI filters so that the UPS does not feedback any harmonics back to the system or limit to the allowed amount.

Ok but there are few ups which provides clean filters in the output stage. There are few that comes with isolation transformer inbuilt.Currently at my place there are lot of issues and only isolation transformer is helping. If I connect tv in one socket and PA in another socket without isolation transformer the tv causes the PA to scream very loud. It’s like a motor is running inside the PA. I tried with EMI filters and still it was ineffective. Only way I was able to fix this issue is to connect the tv to a socket and connect the PA to an isolation transformer connected in different socket. Isolation transformer seems to be very effective in power conditioning. Next I am planning to get a rontek PDU that comes with high/low voltage cutoff and surge protection.

 

[Subbu68]

If I connect tv in one socket and PA in another socket without isolation transformer the tv causes the PA to scream very loud. It’s like a motor is running inside the PA. I tried with EMI filters and still it was ineffective. Only way I was able to fix this issue is to connect the tv to a socket and connect the PA to an isolation transformer connected in different socket. Isolation transformer seems to be very effective in power conditioning.

That noise is most probably from TV SMPS.

I cannot have another socket for TV and have to use the same power strip. I was troubled by this issue of piercing hum (ha I have horn mid and tweeters) when I connected TV to amp using RCA. Tried to get single point grounding right and what not. Finally the solution was to isolate TV with a optical DAC. Even DAC could not be powered from TV's USB. I have a separate power supply for it. Any metallic connection with TV you got it.

When you have that isolation trafo your amp is isolated from TV and all that earthloop etc.vanished.

it is a very complex stuff to figure out. We have hundreds of cables in a substation and imagine an earthloop coming up tripping some critical equipment!! We have spent days to find a small strand of wire causing this .

 

[Love4sound]

That noise is most probably from TV SMPS.

Suspected the same and had it replaced. No change and also had the Oled panel was replaced recently. Only main board remains which LG tech said will try to get one new for testing.Not sure what is the issue. I am suspecting some DC leakage cause isolation transformer isolates DC.

 

[lingamkrishnan]

Since the existing thread is talking about protection of HT, I would like to ask my queries here.

I have a dedicated media room got ready and will be setting up my benq Projector + Denon AVR with XTZ speakers.

Currently have 3kva servo stabilizer which will be placed outside the room and have been trying to get Online UPS and Isolation transformer for the HT setup.

My apartment is newly constructed building and has lots of high voltage issues where neighbors complained about their devices got burned up. And, lots of power cuts. I don't want to take chances and wanted to protect the devices AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE from these power issues.

I have discussed about this to few of my friends in this forum and outside but couldn't get into conclusive decision.

My power source I'm planning is below

1. Main -> 3kva servo stab -> 2kva luminous online ups with inbuilt isolation transformer -> Entire Media room except AC, lights
2. Main -> 3kva servo stab -> 3kva vertex/krykard isolation transformer -> 2kva eaton online ups -> Entire Media room except AC, lights

Please share views/suggestions here to proceed with buying the right of choice protector devices.

 

[lingamkrishnan]

And, this is the online UPS with inbuilt Isolation transformer, could not find any reviews.

Luminous 2KVA LD2000T Online UPS With Isolation Transformer

Specifications Brand Luminous Model & Series LD2000T Type Online UPS with Isolation Transformer Rating in VA, Watts 2 KVA, 1.6 KW Battery Module External Battery Module No’s of Battery Required Eight Batteries - 8 No's Battery Type SMF -...

www.mypowerkart.com

 

[Subbu68]

Since the existing thread is talking about protection of HT, I would like to ask my queries here.

I have a dedicated media room got ready and will be setting up my benq Projector + Denon AVR with XTZ speakers.

Currently have 3kva servo stabilizer which will be placed outside the room and have been trying to get Online UPS and Isolation transformer for the HT setup.

My apartment is newly constructed building and has lots of high voltage issues where neighbors complained about their devices got burned up. And, lots of power cuts. I don't want to take chances and wanted to protect the devices AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE from these power issues.

I have discussed about this to few of my friends in this forum and outside but couldn't get into conclusive decision.

My power source I'm planning is below

1. Main -> 3kva servo stab -> 2kva luminous online ups with inbuilt isolation transformer -> Entire Media room except AC, lights
2. Main -> 3kva servo stab -> 3kva vertex/krykard isolation transformer -> 2kva eaton online ups -> Entire Media room except AC, lights

Please share views/suggestions here to proceed with buying the right of choice protector devices.

From what I could guess is you are in a community with it's own transformer to supply power.

The high voltage issues would be because the transformer must have been set at high tap to cater to voltage drops at the farthest load but the loading is not as expected i.e., transformer is lightly loaded so voltages shoot up. Being a new building or community, the occupancy is not full so loading is low for that tap of the transformer.

To explain further, the transformer have generally 7 taps to control voltages like your stabilizers. It can be different depending on local regulations. 3 to bring down voltage and 3 to boost it. Center is called nominal tap. These taps are to be manually changed. The designer will calculate the voltage drop at the farthest load point and recommend a tap position somewhere in the median for position to make the voltage at this loading point within the prescribed limit of 240V +/- 6% I guess for India.

This will be compounded by use of cables for distribution and longer the cables there will be voltage rise due to capacitance. First thing is get this checked with the maintenance team there or who is controlling it. Please let me know that.

If you have a multimeter please check the voltage of the three phases in your house. Phase to Phase if possible to get a full picture of the voltages Or Phase to Neutral can also be fine to indicate if there is any abnormality. If all Phase to Neutral voltages are about 240V+/- 6% it is considered normal.

If there is frequent power cuts and you cannot tolerate loss of power only you'd need to go for a UPS. Else it is not going to do anything more for you.

The servo stabilizer should be good enough to control the voltage for the HT.

What is intriguing is how do you FMs select the size of the servo stab? For a load like 500 - 800W why a 3000W stab? I don't have a HT setup (I ditched it long time back to just a stereo) so cannot confirm the rating required. Typically twice the total RMS power output of the AVR should be more than enough since they maybe Class AB or even Class D amps inside.

Our kitchen with an induction cooker and infrared cooker plus fridge and dish washer has a demand of only like 2.5kVA, so I am thinking these stabilizers or isolation transformers in the 2kVA or higher range is overkill? I may be wrong.

 

[Subbu68]

Suspected the same and had it replaced. No change and also had the Oled panel was replaced recently. Only main board remains which LG tech said will try to get one new for testing.Not sure what is the issue. I am suspecting some DC leakage cause isolation transformer isolates DC.

It won't change with replacement. SMPS generate noise due to the switching process (the name itself) by which they convert voltage.

 

[Love4sound]

It won't change with replacement. SMPS generate noise due to the switching process (the name itself) by which they convert voltage.

If that is the case no one with c9 will be able to use a PA. I know many who use lg Oled in their HT set up along with a PA. If you see international HT forums many use Lg Oled in their HT set up.This seems to be like some other issue. Tester also glows on all ports and screws of the tv. I confirmed with other lg Oled owners who confirmed tester doesn’t glow

 

[Subbu68]

If that is the case no one with c9 will be able to use a PA. I know many who use lg Oled in their HT set up along with a PA. If you see international HT forums many use Lg Oled in their HT set up.This seems to be like some other issue. Tester also glows on all ports and screws of the tv. I confirmed with other lg Oled owners who confirmed tester doesn’t glow

Is your neutral and phase reversed? That happens often when the plugs are not polarised. The phase gets extended to all DC earth of the equipment if L and N are reversed at the plug while plugging in a non-polarised plug into the power socket or if it not wired properly.

Generally these equipment are said to be double insulated needing no safety earth. The neutral wire of power supply gets terminated inside to the DC earth.

In UK (as well as Gulf) it is compulsory to have three pin plug so the user does not reverse P and N inadvertently.

In the US they have one of the blades of the plug a bit larger.


similarly in India the familiar 3 pin plug makes sure you plug L to L and N to N (if wired correctly).

If these companies do not conform to these spec they get sued in UK, US etc. Not sure if they are providing the 3 pin plug tops in India or are they getting away with a two pin chord. If it is a 2 pin plug see if reversing can solve the issue.