Soundstage Height Issue
- Thread starter Shinto
- Start date
My ceiling height is 8.5' (drop ceiling with armstrong tiles - true ceiling height is 10'), I get a vertical soundstage of about 8', tweeters are about 36" from the ground. I have used - https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-gridfusor/-at the boundary of the wall/ceiling on the wall behind the speakers and it has made a tremendous difference to extend vertical soundstage.
Cheers,
Sid
Hi Sachin,The stand have spikes.
Hi sidvee, Thanks a lot. now that gives me a perspective of your setups vertical soundstage and I can compare mine.so may I ask what would be the height of your singer in general with a vocal oriented track.is it above the speakers??
Yes definitely, I would say at-least 5-6' which is about 2-3' higher than the tweeter position - obviously it would vary from track to track depending upon the recording but that is the average position. I also used to run SHL5 in the same room with approx. same speaker position, but while the vertical stage never extended to 8' it was definitely 1-2' above the tweeters. Please note I did not have the gridfusors when I used the Harbeths.
Cheers,
Sid
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Would you mind telling me your room dimensions and if you remember the,speaker placement distance from front wall, distance between speakers and distance to your listening position when you used to have the harbeth s.In my setup I have moved the recliners on the sides ,covered the tv with rugs,moved seating closer to speakers,raked back the speakers slightly as advised by our forum members.please see attached pic.the wooden chair is the listening position now
which is 2.5 m from speakers.the speakers are 2 m apart.all these improved the focus.no difference in height.the height of the voice is around the height of the tweeter s .the centre image is locked and does not move as I move my head etc.this makes me think in this room I am not going to make much difference in height of stage with these minor steps unless the electronics or the speakers themselves are replaced .
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My room dimensions are 14' x 12' x 8.5' with speakers on the shorter dimension. I don't remember exactly where the Shl5's were, but they were approx. 3.5 - 4' from the rear wall and approx. 2' from side wall. The stands put the supertweeter at my ear position. Here is a link to my audiogon page where the 1st photo is with the SHl5.
systems.audiogon.com
Cheers,
Sid
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Sid
Thanks Sid.My room dimensions are 14' x 12' x 8.5' with speakers on the shorter dimension. I don't remember exactly where the Shl5's were, but they were approx. 3.5 - 4' from the rear wall and approx. 2' from side wall. The stands put the supertweeter at my ear position. Here is a link to my audiogon page where the 1st photo is with the SHl5.
Cheers,Recent Upgrades | Virtual Listening Room
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Sid
Thanks Tuff
D
Deleted member 15865
Guest
@tuff, I wonder what’s the ‘right height’ for vocals to sound? Or, is there one right height? If one sees music across genres, one finds that broadly all western music is sung by singer standing up. Among Indian music, that’s limited to film music which is recorded in studio or sung in an orchestra (also when we play film music we imagine the picturisation and characters mostly in standing position). But in almost all other traditional Indian genres - classical, ghazals, devotional etc are sung in baithak (sitting) position. Would it feel right if the vocals come from a height of 5 feet for these? I doubt the recording engineers take/ can take care of this singing height when they mix the recording. But can you check that the songs where the height falls to 3 ft as you reported are genres sung sitting down?
In the mid-field listening (7-8 feet from the speakers) that I do, I have the tweeters at my ear level (around 3 ft from the floor) and I quite prefer the singer in front of me - i.e. at my eye/ear level. (As an aside, my TV is also set at a height that the eye level matches around 2/3rd height of the screen where generally the character’s faces are). Back to the stereo system, I like the sound rising up when the singer takes a taan - that feels natural. But not throughout the song. Wonder if that’s just a personal preference or there’s some generality here.
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One sure shot way is to play a few videos of a performance with some standing and some sitting and performing. Now take a look at this image as an example. 
Is he sitting in front or above the audience ear level. Now consider this, is the audience hearing him directly or through the speakers in the concert hall?
It can get quite confusing with CD material, when one has no reference.
Is he sitting in front or above the audience ear level. Now consider this, is the audience hearing him directly or through the speakers in the concert hall?
It can get quite confusing with CD material, when one has no reference.
Sushant Sharma
Well-Known Member
Hi. I use a harbeth c7es3 myself and the vertical height of the soundstage is on the speaker level to sometimes much below that. I have not noted it to come from say 6 or 8 feet.
I tried to find something on the harbeth forum after reading this post by Shinto who also uses a Harbeth speaker. Came across this interesting discussion where briefly Alan Shaw and Alan March (March audio Amplifiers) talk about sound staging and post mixing and how mics work when recording.
The discussion if you read page 4 and 5 is about Amplifiers and speakers and whether one or the whole chain is responsible for soundtsaging etc and might be slightly different to the issue at hand. A lot of technical jargon thrown in for my level of understanding. refer post no. 79 particularly. Also this by Alan Shaw,
"It is not possible to synthesise those attributes as a post-recording process, although if it were, then music could be recorded in any old cheap and cheerful acoustic space such as disused warehouses, hotel rooms, domestic living rooms and then miraculously post-processed into beautiful world-class acoustic recordings, saving a vast cost and inconvenience. There is no mechanism in any part of the reproduction chain to practically alter the perception of acoustic space hard coded into the recording except by manipulation of the loudness of certain octave bands, which would create a modified subjective illusion."
I am trying to make sense of this and trying to learn how room and speaker positioning and absorption/diffusion etc can help in altering the presentation to our liking so am following this thread to learn more.
I tried to find something on the harbeth forum after reading this post by Shinto who also uses a Harbeth speaker. Came across this interesting discussion where briefly Alan Shaw and Alan March (March audio Amplifiers) talk about sound staging and post mixing and how mics work when recording.
The discussion if you read page 4 and 5 is about Amplifiers and speakers and whether one or the whole chain is responsible for soundtsaging etc and might be slightly different to the issue at hand. A lot of technical jargon thrown in for my level of understanding. refer post no. 79 particularly. Also this by Alan Shaw,
"It is not possible to synthesise those attributes as a post-recording process, although if it were, then music could be recorded in any old cheap and cheerful acoustic space such as disused warehouses, hotel rooms, domestic living rooms and then miraculously post-processed into beautiful world-class acoustic recordings, saving a vast cost and inconvenience. There is no mechanism in any part of the reproduction chain to practically alter the perception of acoustic space hard coded into the recording except by manipulation of the loudness of certain octave bands, which would create a modified subjective illusion."
I am trying to make sense of this and trying to learn how room and speaker positioning and absorption/diffusion etc can help in altering the presentation to our liking so am following this thread to learn more.
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sound_cycle
Well-Known Member
Umm.
This is all going left of field of the main issue.
There is a poor image to begin with. I am going by the observation on the ledr test posted by OP.
There was a stereophile ledr article posted on hfv long back (could not find but I know that I read it here). I am paraphrasing from memory.
The ledr test does not work for everyone, some thing to do with earlobe length. But it does not require any fancy equipment to work. I remember Thad.e.ginathom posting here that it worked with his computer speakers.
The stereo moh maya we chase and treasure is dependent on phase and time (for bass it is amplitude). The "image" is destroyed by early reflections.
(There is no easy way to say what I am going to without sounding rude, I assure you that is not my intention)
Now the ledr test is free and simple but it is a very powerful and useful tool. If the up test, or the over test is not working out, redo your positioning, because you don't have an image, you are probably not listening in stereo.
Or let's put it differently very simple stuff - positioning and rudimentary treatment - can improve your listening experience. There is sq gain without big spend, so please do take the trouble
To eliminate the possibility of the ledr test not working for you use cheap headphones, and then come back to your main system.
Ciao
GR
With Maggies the sound is allover, height around 6 ft above approx, but I cannot make out the upper part of the Vertical image because they're 4 ft speakers wall mounted 1 ft above the ground. With Focals at least 4 ft and LEDR movement can be easily made out.
I tried the LEDR test. Gives me different results on the Up/Down test depending on close i sit to the speakers. The best i got was a foot away from where the speakers stand,The worst in my usual listening position. As i got closer and closer, i could hear the sound moving up in a straight line.
Something I remembered reading about is the Rooze configuration. But probably only applies to Magnepans.
Will work on why it is with some more play around.
Something I remembered reading about is the Rooze configuration. But probably only applies to Magnepans.
Will work on why it is with some more play around.
Attachments
Hi Sushant,
May I ask what electronics you have in your setup.Also what is the room dimension ,speaker width(apart) and distance to your listening position.Inmy setup the vocal are say at 2 to 3 feet, may be 4 feet sometimes ,Makes me think that this normal.Thanks for the Harbeth thread.
duplicate
Hi All,
I had the chance to listen to this system a couple of months back in a well treated showroom demo room.
Kharma acoustics speakers with Chord electronics .Pics attached.
Kharmas top of the line speakers "Kharma Exquisite Classique" is shown in the main setup pic .
But I listened to Kharma elegance DB7.
As I remember the singer height was around at the top of the rack.
.
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Sushant Sharma
Well-Known Member
The power amp is Quad 909 and the tube pre is Anode Acoustics. The distance from the back wall is 4 1/2 feet and side is 2 1/2 feet and the speakers are 5ft apart from each other. I sit about 7 feet away. I have tried shifting all these a bit here and there barring distance from side walls. I also roughly hear soundstage at about 3ft or so and some recordings it could be slightly more but just very slightly. The imaging and separation with most recordings is very good, so no problems there.
I haven't tried enough with positioning and placing so I cant say anything conclusively. Maybe I can request member @panditji @vivek_r @ADITYA.M [/USER], former and current owners of Harbeths to chime in from memory and experience.
Artaching a photo.
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D
Deleted member 15865
Guest
@Sushant Sharma, are those pillows behind the speakers? In what ways has that helped with the sound?
Sushant Sharma
Well-Known Member
Hi Sachin
Yes. I was just messin about. I cant tell with just my ears and have not used any measurement tools.
rikhav
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Blast from the past
You should find something informative in this thread
www.hifi-forum.de
You should find something informative in this thread
How Do I Improve Image Height, Stereo (Engl.) - HIFI-FORUM
I am an \'image freak\' and a great sound stage is Very important to me, for my listning pleasure. My system is quite basic : Denon 2900 Universal Pl
D
Deleted member 15865
Guest
Blast from the past
You should find something informative in this thread
How Do I Improve Image Height, Stereo (Engl.) - HIFI-FORUM
I am an \'image freak\' and a great sound stage is Very important to me, for my listning pleasure. My system is quite basic : Denon 2900 Universal Pl
Interesting discussion there. The recurrent themes are: reflected sound vs direct sound (wall treatment), ceiling and floor treatment, toe in/tilt (that didn’t work for both that OP and this OP), and the amplifier.
A lot has been discussed on the other points. Do you want to try a small experiment with the amplifier seating, @Shinto? Can you try puting a Turkish towel (double or triple folded) between below your amplifier? Check what happens to the sound overall and especially the image height. It’s a trick that @prem guided me with and considerably improved the sound in my system - essentially reducing the suck out and aiding clarity/detail as compared to placing the amp directly on the cabinet. You too have your amplifier placed on a seemingly non-audiophile (ie non-specific purpose) classic wooden cabinet like me. I wonder if it could help you with your issue too. It’s a pretty easy and quick hack to try.
@rikhav, I am intrigued by this http://www.hifi-forum.de/ forum. I can see most FMs there seem Indian and I could also see @arj common between this and that forum (may be there are more common members). Does hifivision forum owe its antecedence to the hifi-forum.de in any way? In that case, I’d be interested in knowing why the shift happened from that to this one - essentially the genesis of the hifivision forum. Can anyone please illuminate?
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