Soundstage Height Issue

[mpw]

UPDATE:

Did some changes this weekend.
Swapped the left and right speakers physically.
The result: the sound stage smearing towards left is gone.
Solid center image now.Which makes height issue not so noticeable i guess at least for now.
Wondering what could be the reason for this.
Is it because one of the speakers(previous right speaker ) have lesser sound out put.??
If so the sound should shift towards right now ,Is in it.?? Confused now, but any way I have better sound stage and Imaging now even thought he height is not improved.

The question is ,

Harbeths are marked as left and right at the rear of the speaker. Even though the speakers look totally identical,would there be any design reason for marking them so.Now since I have swapped them, is there any issues??

Have u any feedback from.the Harbeth forum ?

 

[keith_correa]

UPDATE:

Did some changes this weekend.
Swapped the left and right speakers physically.
The result: the sound stage smearing towards left is gone.
Solid center image now.Which makes height issue not so noticeable i guess at least for now.
Wondering what could be the reason for this.
Is it because one of the speakers(previous right speaker ) have lesser sound out put.??
If so the sound should shift towards right now ,Is in it.?? Confused now, but any way I have better sound stage and Imaging now even thought he height is not improved.

The question is ,

Harbeths are marked as left and right at the rear of the speaker. Even though the speakers look totally identical,would there be any design reason for marking them so.Now since I have swapped them, is there any issues??

Please extend a warm welcome to "audiophilia nervosa"

 

[Sushant Sharma]

Please extend a warm welcome to "audiophilia nervosa"

I doubt mild symptoms warrant an intervention.

 

[keith_correa]

Harbeths are marked as left and right at the rear of the speaker. Even though the speakers look totally identical,would there be any design reason for marking them so.Now since I have swapped them, is there any issues??

No design reason since the drivers are centered horizontally on the baffle. Only reason I can think of is veneer matching at the factory stage. And, there should be absolutely no issues if you swap them.

 

[Shinto]

Have u any feedback from.the Harbeth forum ?

Hi mpw,
I have not raised it in the Harbeth Forum or have not searched well if there is a relating thread.will do soon.

No design reason since the drivers are centered horizontally on the baffle. Only reason I can think of is veneer matching at the factory stage. And, there should be absolutely no issues if you swap them.

Hi keith,

Agree...

Guys,

The soundstage /imaging is improved a lot with the swapping.much much better than before.

See the link below.

both of them in video takes their exact positions in the soundscape as in the video.
I mean both of their voices are not coming from the dead center or one point, but side by side.I have never experienced this before.

please try it on on your setup and let me know.


Noticed this with some songs too.when two singers are in place, they both take similar positions.
Noticed this also with "Kanne by Thaikkudam Bridge from album Namah" towards the end of the song.
May be this very recording/mastering dependent and may be present only with some recordings.

Ignore this if you guys have already experienced/experiencing it in your setups...

 

[firearm12]

Guys,

The soundstage /imaging is improved a lot with the swapping.much much better than before.

See the link below.

both of them in video takes their exact positions in the soundscape as in the video.
I mean both of their voices are not coming from the dead center or one point, but side by side.I have never experienced this before.

please try it on on your setup and let me know.


Noticed this with some songs too.when two singers are in place, they both take similar positions.
Noticed this also with "Kanne by Thaikkudam Bridge from album Namah" towards the end of the song.
May be this very recording/mastering dependent and may be present only with some recordings.

Ignore this if you guys have already experienced/experiencing it in your setups...

this is what Dali says for their speakers

Professional Sound | Sound Academy | DALI Speakers

If you like specially curated high-resolution albums and articles about music, artists, home cinema and tech, the DALI Sound Academy has something for you.

www.dali-speakers.com

the last person who posted on below thread also experienced changes, so might be right with harbeth also

DALI zensor 6 left right issue?

Can somebody shed some light if there is a difference in a left and right speaker as mentioned on the back of these floorstanders ? I had a change to...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

 

[Kannan]

Harbeths are marked as left and right at the rear of the speaker

No difference and does not matter. Only certain speakers with the drivers aligned on different vertical planes call for keeping a specific speaker on the left or right depending essentially on the axial location of the tweeters. This also applies to some speakers where the bass driver is located on the sides.
However since in your case swapping has helped the sweet spot to be more solid, just let it remain that way.
With speakers, the positioning is more room-dependent to get the right balance for stage height, width and depth.

 

[rikhav]

No difference and does not matter. Only certain speakers with the drivers aligned on different vertical planes call for keeping a specific speaker on the left or right depending essentially on the axial location of the tweeters. This also applies to some speakers where the bass driver is located on the sides.
However since in your case swapping has helped the sweet spot to be more solid, just let it remain that way.
With speakers, the positioning is more room-dependent to get the right balance for stage height, width and depth.

Not a solution for OP but something related to the thread

As a beginner audiophile I used to feel why the hell do companies give balance , bass, treble controls. Agreed sound has to travel through more circuits and hence more impure. But now I realize how much important they are and specially balance.
Like I read , probably on this thread or some other , at times due to the way room is sound from either of the speaker sounds louder due to more wall reinforcement which can't be avoided. This screws up the soundstage and this is where the balance control helps

 

[Shinto]

Update:
The sound stage smear issue is solved now.eventhough the height is not increased much,it did improve a little.

Changes made:

Diy mogami 2549 interconnect replaced with a cheap but well built 0.5 m interconnect (nothing fancy).The solder was not right on my diy interconnect.
Speaker cables changed from generic 12 gauge copper cable to Qed xt350 which is a silver coated cable.this cable did improve the high frequency response,.quite noticeable.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

My question is about Sound stage Height(vertical soundstage).


In my setup, I have the sound stage lower than the speaker height.


Is it normal.?Or should it be higher, as if the singer is standing in front of me.


Also the sound stage is slightly shifted/smeared towards the left I feel at my normal listening position(3 m from speakers). However this problem goes away and I have a better center image when I move closer to the speakers.


Setup Details:


Living room area:3.3 m x 5.5 m room,Dining/kitchen area: 3 m x 5.5 m. The living room opens to the left to dining area/kitchen.


Speakers are 1.8 m apart. Both speakers spaced @ 0.75 m from back wall.


Speakers tweeter height and listening ear height around 0.9 m.


Right speaker has a wall at 0.75 m,left speaker has no side wall nearby as the room open to dining area.


All measurements above from front/center of speaker.


My listening position is 3 m away for practical reasons.

There is an overall improvement and better center image/horizontal sound stage as I move closer to the speakers,(as I have tried this temporarily).But still the sound stage height is still not improved with this.

Any suggestions/solutions welcome?.


Any one else experienced this and solved this?

Does you speaker have a dedicated mid range ?

 

[Shinto]

Does you speaker have a dedicated mid range ?

No it doesn't.it is a 2 way

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

No it doesn't.it is a 2 way

Can you try isolating the speaker from the stands using some cushion temporarily just to see if stand was contributing to the mids ?

 

[Shinto]

Can you try isolating the speaker from the stands using some cushion temporarily just to see if stand was contributing to the mids ?

I have no issues with mids.I was only concerned of the low height of the sound stage.

 

[audiopro]

I have no issues with mids.I was only concerned of the low height of the sound stage.

If you have an ac between the speakers blowing air down between them it can also cause this problem. Try listening with the AC and fan off after cooling the room to say 22c and see.


Can't make out but what's to the left of the left speaker? Is it a wall or the hall opens up? If there is no wall to the left then toe in the left speaker a tad more to compensate for the lack of wide wall reflection. This will also help with the height.

 

[Shinto]

If you have an ac between the speakers blowing air down between them it can also cause this problem. Try listening with the AC and fan off after cooling the room to say 22c and see.

Thanks for the input.But AC is off most of the time.

Can't make out but what's to the left of the left speaker? Is it a wall or the hall opens up? If there is no wall to the left then toe in the left speaker a tad more to compensate for the lack of wide wall reflection. This will also help with the height.

Left open s to dining area.I will try toeing left speaker.but I always had a centre image leaning towards the left.so the right speaker is toed in to balance it.is it the right thing to do.please share your thoughts.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Since you have tried many option you can try this too,
- toe-in only the left speaker as the first reflection is far away.
- draw in the curtains while listening. Check if you need to toe-in the right speaker too
- imo I think the issue seems to be of focus. You can try moving either the left or right speaker ahead or behind a few inches to get the correct focus. This is similar to adjusting your camera lens to get a proper image focus.

 

[audiopro]

Left open s to dining area.I will try toeing left speaker.but I always had a centre image leaning towards the left.so the right speaker is toed in to balance it.is it the right thing to do.please share your thoughts.

Hari has also said rhe right thing. Your doing a mistake by toeing in the right to compensate. Keep both speakers firing front. Then toe in the left and see. I had a similar room layout a few Years ago. I would actually toe out the right speaker a tad and toe in the left to get the correct balance. Most likely the lack of left side wall is why your having these problems. Play with left toe in and you should get the height as well. If you find the sound becoming too hot then move the left speaker a little to the left like 1 to 4 inches and then toe in. You can send Hari and me a bottle if we get it right.

 

[Shinto]

Thanks Hari and audipro for the advice.

@audiopro ,,looks like I will have to send bottles to you and @Hari Iyer .
Tried what you have suggested. I.e toed in the left speaker ,toed out the right speaker.the left speaker was moved to left as it was a little hot .the right speaker was moved forward.the sound was holographic now.but the tone and imaging is affected .sort of smeared sound may be.All I need to do now is fine tune as I now know that my set up can produce height.Finally the singer is standing even though he is not tall ,atleast he is standing now. . Thanks again as this has opened a new pathway

@audiopro ,,looks like I will have to send bottles to you and @Hari Iyer .
Tried what you have suggested. I.e toed in the left speaker ,toed out the right speaker.the left speaker was moved to left as it was a little hot .the right speaker was moved forward.the sound was holographic now.but the tone and imaging is affected .sort of smeared sound may be.All I need to do now is fine tune as I now know that my set up can produce height.Finally the singer is standing even though he is not tall ,atleast he is standing now. . Thanks again as this has opened a new pathway

Welcoming any other suggestions to fine tune.what I am looking for is tall enough centre image with good soundstage and imaging and tone without any smearing.The sound is holographic,(3d like) now .does holographic sound comes with the caveat of no precise location/imaging?? Pardon my ignorance.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

@audiopro ,,looks like I will have to send bottles to you and @Hari Iyer .
Tried what you have suggested. I.e toed in the left speaker ,toed out the right speaker.the left speaker was moved to left as it was a little hot .the right speaker was moved forward.the sound was holographic now.but the tone and imaging is affected .sort of smeared sound may be.All I need to do now is fine tune as I now know that my set up can produce height.Finally the singer is standing even though he is not tall ,atleast he is standing now. . Thanks again as this has opened a new pathway

Asymmetric toe in and/or asymmetric distancing of speakers leads to smeared sound and impacts the imaging. I’ve experienced that when I tried in the past. I have since settled on symmetric positioning (also in my case with zero toe in). You’ve to decide whether spectacular highs or cohesive sound matters more to you.

If center image is leaning to the left, try pulling the left speaker a bit in (towards the center) and/or the right speaker a bit out (away from the center). A few mm could suffice. Check if the imaging moves. This doesn’t smear the sound, but only moves the center image laterally.

 

[oracle1974]

Asymmetric toe in and/or distancing of speakers leads to smeared sound and impact the imaging. I’ve experienced that when I tried that in the past. I settled on symmetric positioning (also in my case with zero toe in). You’ve to decide whether spectacular highs or cohesive sound matters more to you.

If center image is leaning to the left, try pulling the left speaker a bit in (towards the center) and/or the right speaker a bit out (away from the center). A few mm can suffice. Check if the imaging moves.

Given that that there is a wall on the right side and open on the left side, the room has asymmetric conditions and hence wouldn't there be a requirement for asymmetric toe-in / distancing?