Soundstage Height Issue

[Shinto]

My question is about Sound stage Height(vertical soundstage).


In my setup, I have the sound stage lower than the speaker height.


Is it normal.?Or should it be higher, as if the singer is standing in front of me.


Also the sound stage is slightly shifted/smeared towards the left I feel at my normal listening position(3 m from speakers). However this problem goes away and I have a better center image when I move closer to the speakers.


Setup Details:


Living room area:3.3 m x 5.5 m room,Dining/kitchen area: 3 m x 5.5 m. The living room opens to the left to dining area/kitchen.


Speakers are 1.8 m apart. Both speakers spaced @ 0.75 m from back wall.


Speakers tweeter height and listening ear height around 0.9 m.


Right speaker has a wall at 0.75 m,left speaker has no side wall nearby as the room open to dining area.


All measurements above from front/center of speaker.


My listening position is 3 m away for practical reasons.

There is an overall improvement and better center image/horizontal sound stage as I move closer to the speakers,(as I have tried this temporarily).But still the sound stage height is still not improved with this.

Any suggestions/solutions welcome?.


Any one else experienced this and solved this?

 

[newlash09]

Hi Shinto

I've been there before and also heard some systems where the sound had no vertical reach. It is a question of adressing two things:

1. Floor reflections- adding a carpet can help here
2. Vertical angling of speakers - you can place something under the front speaker spikes to give them a backwards tilt. I found it helps with the vertical sound stage reach.

All the best

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Shinto,

First on the height of the sound stage, can you check (say with a level gauge) if your speakers are levelled properly? Either due to sloping floor or imbalanced spike adjustments if the speakers are sloping (even slightly) downward towards you, the sound stage could shift down. (I wouldn’t suggest sloping them up to compensate as with any slope the soundstage will keep ascending or descending as one goes away from the speakers. That’s not ideal).

The other reason could be acoustic. If your system is rolling off highs and/or is too warm in sound, it can tend to produce a sound stage below where it should. The remediation can be sought through changing interconnects, power cables etc. Also, try toeing in the speakers and check. Sometimes that helps get the soundstage up.

The image shifting towards one side, you can try finding the source of this problem. Starting from the speaker cable going into the post, try changing the left and right channels... one by one in a stepped experiment (first the speaker end, then the amp end and so on). At some point in this experiment the sound will bias towards the other side. You’d have located the source of the problem then. I used to have this problem, and located it to a loose fitting tube socket in my preamp and got it rectified. You have to find yours.

Also check if the toe in of both the speakers is exactly equal. Also if they are equidistant from the rear wall. Check with a measuring scale. In ported designs and with certain speakers, the imaging is quite sensitive to this. Mine are and I keep the measurement accuracy down to 0.5mm. With precise center imaging you’d also see the highs sound better moving the soundstage up. So it could address both your problems.

I’d suggest you first carry out the above positioning checks before you think of any changes to accessories, equipment etc.

All the best.

 

[Shinto]

Shinto,

First on the height of the sound stage, can you check (say with a level gauge) if your speakers are levelled properly? Either due to sloping floor or imbalanced spike adjustments if the speakers are sloping (even slightly) downward towards you, the sound stage could shift down. (I wouldn’t suggest sloping them up to compensate as with any slope the soundstage will keep ascending or descending as one goes away from the speakers. That’s not ideal).

The other reason could be acoustic. If your system is rolling off highs and/or is too warm in sound, it can tend to produce a sound stage below where it should. The remediation can be sought through changing interconnects, power cables etc. Also, try toeing in the speakers and check. Sometimes that helps get the soundstage up.

The image shifting towards one side, you can try finding the source of this problem. Starting from the speaker cable going into the post, try changing the left and right channels... one by one in a stepped experiment (first the speaker end, then the amp end and so on). At some point in this experiment the sound will bias towards the other side. You’d have located the source of the problem then. I used to have this problem, and located it to a loose fitting tube socket in my preamp and got it rectified. You have to find yours.

Also check if the toe in of both the speakers is exactly equal. Also if they are equidistant from the rear wall. Check with a measuring scale. In ported designs and with certain speakers, the imaging is quite sensitive to this. Mine are and I keep the measurement accuracy down to 0.5mm. With precise center imaging you’d also see the highs sound better moving the soundstage up. So it could address both your problems.

I’d suggest you first carry out the above positioning checks before you think of any changes to accessories, equipment etc.

All the best.

Hi Sachin,
Thanks for the detailed writeup.I will check this and report.

Hi Shinto

I've been there before and also heard some systems where the sound had no vertical reach. It is a question of adressing two things:

1. Floor reflections- adding a carpet can help here
2. Vertical angling of speakers - you can place something under the front speaker spikes to give them a backwards tilt. I found it helps with the vertical sound stage reach.

All the best

Hi Newleash,Thanks for the tips.My room is carpeted.And I have an additional rug between me and speakers.maybe I should remove the rug.Regarding raking back ,my spikes are not adjustable.Do you have any suggestions for what to place under the front spikes.

 

[newlash09]

Hi Newleash,Thanks for the tips.My room is carpeted.And I have an additional rug between me and speakers.maybe I should remove the rug.Regarding raking back ,my spikes are not adjustable.Do you have any suggestions for what to place under the front spikes.

Hi again Shinto

If the floor is carpeted then we can rule out massive floor reflections . Next option will only be to induce a rear ward tilt. You can try anything, wood obviously. But I've had dramatic results from using isolation under my speakers. So that is what I would recommend. Lots of options in hifimart. Though ive never tried them. But user opinions seem to the unanimously positive. So maybe worth a punt

 

[drkrack]

If the floor is carpeted then we can rule out massive floor reflections .

The ceiling is a contributor as far as the vertical soundstage goes, OP should consider absorption tiles like Armstrong Acoustic Tiles for the ceiling if the basic troubleshooting as suggested by @SachinChavan doesn't work out.

@Shinto BTW how are you assessing the vertical soundstage?
I usually run these tests
LEDR
during speaker setup and stop adjusting the position etc once I get satisfactory results. Do you use any other test files, other tests which are more elaborate?

 

[newlash09]

The ceiling is a contributor as far as the vertical soundstage goes, OP should consider absorption tiles like Armstrong Acoustic Tiles for the ceiling if the basic troubleshooting as suggested by @SachinChavan doesn't work out.

@Shinto BTW how are you assessing the vertical soundstage?
I usually run these tests
LEDR
during speaker setup and stop adjusting the position etc once I get satisfactory results. Do you use any other test files, other tests which are more elaborate?

I was about to suggest the ceiling too. But felt it would be a overkill

 

[Shinto]

The ceiling is a contributor as far as the vertical soundstage goes, OP should consider absorption tiles like Armstrong Acoustic Tiles for the ceiling if the basic troubleshooting as suggested by @SachinChavan doesn't work out.

@Shinto BTW how are you assessing the vertical soundstage?
I usually run these tests
LEDR
during speaker setup and stop adjusting the position etc once I get satisfactory results. Do you use any other test files, other tests which are more elaborate?

Hi drcrack,I am concerned about the horizontal height of stage in general with all materials I listen to.especially with voices you feel like the singer is sitting on a low height chair in front of you behind the speakers.(my system has depth is assume.)by the way thanks for test material..I have never used any test material.

 

[tuff]

Try this...quite old but effective test.

 

[drkrack]

by the way thanks for test material..I have never used any test material.

Try with other test materials, all major audio companies have their reference test tracks /sound files in Cds which can be used for testing purposes (most dealers have them). BTW, LEDR seems enough as far as I'm concerned. If the sound appears to go 2m above respective speakers on LEDR, I think you're good enough. (at least I'd stop at that).

especially with voices you feel like the singer is sitting on a low height chair in front of you behind the speakers

There are quite many variables here, though it's a standard practice to recommend tweeters to be set at listener's ear level, but many of the Audiophiles prefer the mid range drivers to be at the ear level. Our FM @newlash09 recently did a cool hack with 3 granite tiles under his PMCs (already pretty tall speakers) and he was quite impressed with overall results. Maybe you're looking for something like this.

 

[mpw]

Are you an exceptionally tall guy ?

)

 

[jls001]

Buy spirit level and measuring tape from a hardware store. Check that your speakers are both at equal height and correctly leveled in front-back and left-right directions by placing spirit level on top of speakers (I'm assuming the top is flat). At 3m listening distance, even a slight mismatch in height and vertical pointing will get accentuated by the distance. Regarding left-right channel imbalance, make sure that both speakers are at exactly equal distance from the listening (equal to within +/- 1 mm). And the toe in should be exactly equal too. If you want the tweeters to fire up a bit, use spacers on the front of the speakers (something like two sheets of thick paper will do), or adjust footer height (if possible).

None of this is a difficult task. It just takes time and patience.

 

[Shinto]

Thanking all of you for the valuable suggestions.so can I assume all of you have a soundstage above the speakers,what height above the speakers are we looking at.

Are you an exceptionally tall guy ?

)

Haha just the opposite.a short guy

Try with other test materials, all major audio companies have their reference test tracks /sound files in Cds which can be used for testing purposes (most dealers have them). BTW, LEDR seems enough as far as I'm concerned. If the sound appears to go 2m above respective speakers on LEDR, I think you're good enough. (at least I'd stop at that).

There are quite many variables here, though it's a standard practice to recommend tweeters to be set at listener's ear level, but many of the Audiophiles prefer the mid range drivers to be at the ear level. Our FM @newlash09 recently did a cool hack with 3 granite tiles under his PMCs (already pretty tall speakers) and he was quite impressed with overall results. Maybe you're looking for something like this.

Hi drkrack,I tried the LEDR today and the height check fails.the sound moves to behind the speakers instead of up.all the other tests passed.

 

[mpw]

Haha just the opposite.a short guy

good to see the humor and not take personal offence


the ability to spot humor is getting rarer these days..

I was wondering if you have connected the speakers in the correct polarity - check at speaker end and at amp end.

which pre amp do you use ?

If you see desktop speakers - they have accessories which make the baffle lift up a bit - points to the listener in near field - maybe you might try to lift your speakers like that - FM jls mentioned it

 

[Shinto]

Hi Guys,I tried all the suggestions s.speaker are level, slightly raked back now as the spikes were height adjustable.both speakers are now at exact distance from back wall and toe in also exactly the same.none of it works in my case.Is there anything else I can try.

 

[mpw]

Thanking all of you for the valuable suggestions.so can I assume all of you have a soundstage above the speakers,what height above the speakers are we looking at.

frankly - i havent delved into these things at all

i havent run 1 test track on my system.

Maybe its a weak point for me

I have a definite distance for my speakers ( 30 inches ) front baffle from the edge of the 6 inch absorbers hung on my front wall

My speaker manual recommends 6 ft from tweeter - tweeter

Toe in- to taste - but of late i keep the speakers firing straight.

I just stop when i enjoy the music and dont let the technicalities bother me so much as i wasn't there at the venue when it was recorded.

I was meaning to ask @jls001 is +/- 1 mm of adjustments are really worth it ?

i cannot sit and listen to music for a long time so that means i would not be able to move my head by +/-1 mm ( if i sit ) ???

 

[Shinto]

good to see the humor and not take personal offence


the ability to spot humor is getting rarer these days..

I was wondering if you have connected the speakers in the correct polarity - check at speaker end and at amp end.

which pre amp do you use ?

If you see desktop speakers - they have accessories which make the baffle lift up a bit - points to the listener in near field - maybe you might try to lift your speakers like that - FM jls mentioned it

Hi mpw,my amp and speakers as in signature integrated amp Yamaha as1000 and harbeth 30.1.dac is audiogd nfb 5.

 

[mpw]

Hi Guys,I tried all the suggestions s.speaker are level, slightly raked back now as the spikes were height adjustable.both speakers are now at exact distance from back wall and toe in also exactly the same.none of it works in my case.Is there anything else I can try.

put a pic of your system and listening position

 

[Shinto]

put a pic of your system and listening position

Trying to.but the pic is too large.let me try again

 

[mpw]

pic will help visualize..

its quite easy to post pics on HFV

reduce size to about 250 kb odd