South Indian Carnatic Classical Music

[Thad E Ginathom]

Apologies to the purists looks like I touched a raw nerve by posting about fusion music. Just to clarify I am a novice when it comes to the classical music and I cannot tell one raga from the other. I just pick music that sound pleasant to my ears.

With that disclaimer, I do believe that some of the stuff John McLaughlin did with Vikku Vinaykram, Zakir Hussain etc is very very nice, also some of VM Bhatt stuff with Bella Fleck in Tabula Rasa is excellent.

No apologies needed: even if I hate the stuff you love, or you hate the stuff I love, we can still discuss, and if the conversation gets a little heated, never mind. I'm sure there will be shared territory too!

Gobble, I recall disliking John Macaughlin (sp?) long ago. I didn't like the Mahavishnu orchestra thirty years ago. Mind you, I didn't appreciate Mr Hendrix in those days , so things change, and music should be revisited from time to time!

crisscross... Veena Jayanthi [Kumaresh] might be a good place to start. She covers the spectrum from fusion to deeply serious. Her playing is superb.

Gobble, I used to learn mridangam and play morsing. Ten years as a first-year student: adi talam, samam edupu, I can manage . Glad to know you'll be picking up the violin.

 

[sughosh]

Thad, the electric, jazz-oriented work of the Mahavishnu Orchestra is relatively tougher to appreciate. I personally prefer J McL acoustic, with Shakti, and "Making music", the album with Zakir / Chaurasia / Garbarek.

Oh, and I still don't like Hendrix :lol:

 

[srramanujam]

Guys.. any recommendations on Artists/Recordings for Veena?

For Veena, start with Mysore Doreswamy Iyengar, the absolute best. There are a few titles in Music Today and the recording is good. There are also titles in lesser known labels. While the music is good, the recordings are so so.

You can also look at the Chitti Babu Solid Gold 2 CD collection from saregama.

But frankly, once you listen to Doreswamy Iyengar, other seem like street corner guitarists.

 

[sughosh]

But frankly, once you listen to Doreswamy Iyengar, other seem like street corner guitarists.

Hmm....strong words. I haven't heard enough of Doraiswamy Iyengar to agree or disagree, but I must say that Chitti Babu, Emani Sankara Sastry and RK Suryanarayanan sure don't sound anything like "street corner guitarists" to my ears.

I must pull out that Doraiswamy Iyengar Los Angeles concert from my dad's collection and judge..

 

[sivasarjun]

Was listening to Veena K S Narayanaswamy yesterday.Beautiful.He had assisted or collaborated with Semmangudi in tuning many Swati compositions.Infact Semmangudi credits him with tuning many of the great padams of Swati.Especially Jalajabandhu(Suruti),Tharuni njan(Dwijawanthi),Kintuchivu(Kalyani).

 

[crisscross]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Any feedback on this? http://www.kannadastore.com/kannada-audio-cd-classical-62-artists-the-divine-trinity-pride-possession-10-cd-set-p-4506.html

 

[murali_n]

Guys.. any recommendations on Artists/Recordings for Veena?

Hi cc,

For Veena I recommend the following - both for the recording and the selection of songs :

Title " Gaayathri performs for you"
S. No. CD SA-038 on "Geethanjali" label,

Produced & Marketed by : Super Audio (Madras) Pvt Ltd.,
17, Raheja Complex ,
834, Anna Salai,
Chennai - 600002.

N.Murali

 

[srramanujam]

Hmm....strong words. I haven't heard enough of Doraiswamy Iyengar to agree or disagree, but I must say that Chitti Babu, Emani Sankara Sastry and RK Suryanarayanan sure don't sound anything like "street corner guitarists" to my ears.

I must pull out that Doraiswamy Iyengar Los Angeles concert from my dad's collection and judge..

Well, forum rules permit me to have a violent positive bias, and i took the chance. I meant no offence, it was just a harmful way of emphasising the depth of MDI.

YouTube - Mysore Doraiswamy Iyengar - Veena

 

[srramanujam]

Can you also give me details of the LA concert and where to source the CD from (if it is still available).

 

[Kevian]

john b Higgins anyone? ka va vaa??

 

[vmscbe1974]

Veenai S balachander's 64 melakarta raaagas by HMV should be an addition to any one who has interest in listening and learning carnatic music.
Regards
Sri

 

[Asit]

Asliarun, you have stated that North Indian classical music is more melodic than Carnatic or South Indian classical music and at the same time Carnatic is more technical than North Indian.

Thad, you have stated OTOH that Carnatic classical music is more melodic than North Indian classical music.

It is very much possible that you guys have much better understanding and appreciation of the two forms of Indian classical music. However, my view is that these statements do not carry much meaning for me. My understanding is that the basic goal and the methods to reach that goal are very much the same. They differ only in their forms of presentation.

I have enjoyed both forms immensely. I have also seen from quite close quarters that the greatest of musicians of both forms genuinely appreciate, enjoy and learn from the other form.

Presentation forms differ quite appreciably even within each of these two styles. Mallikarjun Mansur's vocal presentations have a very different form than, for example Amir Khan's. Similarly, K V Narayanswamy's is very different from Maharajpuram Santhanam's, as theirs is very different from Bal Murali Krishna's.

Some musicians in the North Indian style even consciously modeled parts of their presentations after some of the Carnatic elements, for example, Abdul Karim Khan, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and also Ravi Shankar. Some of the Carnatic performers have also done very similarly.

Both forms have the same ragas (mostly they are known by different names in the two styles) and the same tala (rhythm) system.

I agree with Thad that most serious Western listeners enjoy the more serious parts of Indian Classical music, which is the alaap (raga exposition).

If you can ever get hold of Ken Zuckerman's Sarod recordings, please do listen. He lives in Basel, Switzerland and has a few CDs. I have never heard any Westerner play any better, although I know many many of them who practise either form of Indian classical music.

Before I end, let me tell you that Bala (member thevortex of this forum) started a detailed e-mail interview with me on many many aspects of Indian classical music, including similarities and differences of these two forms of Indian Classical music. I do not see him very active these days in this forum, but I have still some contact with him, although a bit sporadically these days. Our discussions ran into many many pages. He was very intent on publishing those discussions in a forum. However, I was very sceptic because I thought who would have any interest in reading. However, it had very detailed discussion on related topics. In any case, these are best illustrated with live demonstrations rather than just discussions.

I hope, both Thad and Asliarun, you guys do not mind me expressing the difference of my views with yours.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Not at all. I learn a lot from my "elders" (the experience counting more than the age) on rasikas.org, and I'm happy to learn here too.

I'm very ignorant about Northern classical music (even more than Southern!) and had in mind a certain kind of alap, in my comment about melody. I'm not even sure what this kind of Hindustani music is called (and I recognise that there are several distinct forms). I'd say that it is more note-focussed, rather than phrase-focussed.

I'd certainly like to see your conversations with Bala

 

[sughosh]

Can you also give me details of the LA concert and where to source the CD from (if it is still available).

I'm not sure this is an official release - it's in my dad's reel-to-reel collection, and he has a lot of stuff that people taped by negotiating with sabhas to place their recorders at strategic locations. I couldn't find anything online regarding this concert. I will play the tape one of these days and check the track listing.

 

[srramanujam]

it's in my dad's reel-to-reel collection, and he has a lot of stuff that people taped by negotiating with sabhas to place their recorders at strategic locations.

A lucky bunch, i am sure.

I owe you an explanation for my earlier remark. The MDI CD (Thyagaraja Masterpieces) converted me into a classical music listener. I grew up among Carnatic fanatics and some form of music was always around me and over a period of time i started hating it.

One day, out of curiosity i bought this cassette. The first title - Vachama Gocharame completely transformed my taste, and i could sense there is something magical in this music. I have been listening to carnatic music since then. From that memory, i still set MDI apart in my mind. I was literally listening to street corner guitarists till then (if you leave out Jimi Hendrix and Clapton that is)

 

[asliarun]

Asliarun, you have stated that North Indian classical music is more melodic than Carnatic or South Indian classical music and at the same time Carnatic is more technical than North Indian.

Thad, you have stated OTOH that Carnatic classical music is more melodic than North Indian classical music.

It is very much possible that you guys have much better understanding and appreciation of the two forms of Indian classical music. However, my view is that these statements do not carry much meaning for me. My understanding is that the basic goal and the methods to reach that goal are very much the same. They differ only in their forms of presentation.

I have enjoyed both forms immensely. I have also seen from quite close quarters that the greatest of musicians of both forms genuinely appreciate, enjoy and learn from the other form.

Presentation forms differ quite appreciably even within each of these two styles. Mallikarjun Mansur's vocal presentations have a very different form than, for example Amir Khan's. Similarly, K V Narayanswamy's is very different from Maharajpuram Santhanam's, as theirs is very different from Bal Murali Krishna's.

Some musicians in the North Indian style even consciously modeled parts of their presentations after some of the Carnatic elements, for example, Abdul Karim Khan, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and also Ravi Shankar. Some of the Carnatic performers have also done very similarly.

Both forms have the same ragas (mostly they are known by different names in the two styles) and the same tala (rhythm) system.

I agree with Thad that most serious Western listeners enjoy the more serious parts of Indian Classical music, which is the alaap (raga exposition).

If you can ever get hold of Ken Zuckerman's Sarod recordings, please do listen. He lives in Basel, Switzerland and has a few CDs. I have never heard any Westerner play any better, although I know many many of them who practise either form of Indian classical music.

Before I end, let me tell you that Bala (member thevortex of this forum) started a detailed e-mail interview with me on many many aspects of Indian classical music, including similarities and differences of these two forms of Indian Classical music. I do not see him very active these days in this forum, but I have still some contact with him, although a bit sporadically these days. Our discussions ran into many many pages. He was very intent on publishing those discussions in a forum. However, I was very sceptic because I thought who would have any interest in reading. However, it had very detailed discussion on related topics. In any case, these are best illustrated with live demonstrations rather than just discussions.

I hope, both Thad and Asliarun, you guys do not mind me expressing the difference of my views with yours.

Regards.

Asit, I'm far from an expert. In fact, I have learnt a great deal about music from reading your posts in this forum.

I had almost not replied to your post earlier as I know you are extremely knowledgeable in this field. However, I chose to add my post not to contradict you but to present a different viewpoint, something that I feel from my gut, not so much on extensive experience or logic.

The intent was not to compare Hindustani music vs Karnatic music, but to suggest that some forms of classical music ("form" could also be a sub-style of a type of classical music) are more accessible to a lay person than others (perhaps because of the varying emphasis on melody and technicality).

To use an art analogy, it takes a lot more knowledge of art to appreciate abstract art than to appreciate something that we can understand more easily. This is not to say that one is better than the other, but how accessible it is at a non-technical level.

I also want to be careful in mentioning that by melodic, I don't mean "pop" (for example, Karnatic light music), but purely a facet of music.

 

[sivasarjun]

I broadly agree with Asits view about the similarities between Carnatic and Hindusthani and his lucid way of expression.
However there is a difference in my opinion.Carnatic is more Composition based than alap based.Although Alap(Raga vistara) is important ,what a rasika looks forward is how a certain singer intreprets the great compositions(Kritis) of Tyagaraja,Dikshitar and Syamasasthri.
So in order to appreciate Carnatic the listener has to imbibe the kriti (and through it the raga)himself through repeated hearings and internalise it.

So we can say very very broadly that Hindusthani is more raga based and Carnatic composition based.Yes I know it is a big generalisation.
And one of the frustrating things while attending concerts is that most of the artists dont sing the really weighty kritis but go for popular easy listening type of kritis.

 

[sughosh]

I owe you an explanation for my earlier remark. The MDI CD (Thyagaraja Masterpieces) converted me into a classical music listener. I grew up among Carnatic fanatics and some form of music was always around me and over a period of time i started hating it.

One day, out of curiosity i bought this cassette. The first title - Vachama Gocharame completely transformed my taste, and i could sense there is something magical in this music. I have been listening to carnatic music since then. From that memory, i still set MDI apart in my mind. I was literally listening to street corner guitarists till then (if you leave out Jimi Hendrix and Clapton that is)

This was more or less the case with me, too. Carnatic was pretty much forced down my throat, while I preferred RD Burman, Madonna or The Beatles. Notable exceptions for me at that age were Lalgudi Jayaraman's "Dance of sound (Thillanas)", Balamuralikrishna's "Bhadrachala Ramadasa Kirtanas", MS' "Balaji Pancharatnamala", Chitti Babu's "Musings of a musician", and a couple of LPs by L Shankar/Shakti. It took a long long time for me to appreciate any other Carnatic music, and I was rather late to listen to many other stalwarts.

I guess I can equate what you feel about MDI with what I felt about the above artists/albums - they still remain my eternal favourites.

Not sure what others you were listening to, but I think Clapton especially WAS a street corner guitarist :lol: Never really appreciated him much.

If you like guitar music that approaches the fluid, seamless phrasing of Indian Classical I would strongly suggest the work of Richard Thompson.

 

[sughosh]

So we can say very very broadly that Hindusthani is more raga based and Carnatic composition based.Yes I know it is a big generalisation.

Not really a generalisation, that's pretty much fact, given that even Hindustani LPs print only the Raags on the sleeves, and expect for Bhajans Dhuns, don't usually refer to any specific composition.

Having said that there are Carnatic artists also who have put out entire LPs of just RTP, which has a very minimal component of composition.

And one of the frustrating things while attending concerts is that most of the artists dont sing the really weighty kritis but go for popular easy listening type of kritis.

Indeed? I'm not a regular concert-goer but I've often found the scenario exactly reverse - artists going out of their way to perform obscure krithis in difficult-to-grasp ragas. I don't remember seeing a concert where Vathapi, Maha Ganapathim Manasa Smarami, or other such popular krithis featured.

 

[sivasarjun]

Last week went to a Pantula Rama concert in which after a rather well presented Kamboji varnam things went rapidly downhill.Then she sung Mahaganapathim,Entharomahanubhavulu,Ksheerasagara,Hindolam alapana followed by Govardhana(not Neerajakshi ) and then Bihag .All in a very routine way with no attempt at creating anything new or weighty.Remember she is one of the more talented ones.