South Indian Carnatic Classical Music

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Asit

You are surely right in your approach and views.

I don't think it is stretching an idea too far to say that the practice and appreciation of Indian classical music in its purity is a form of, or mirrors spiritual practice? For me, Carnatic is like a spiritual radio tuner - it tunes me in to a wavelength that makes me a little more aware of my inner consciousness in its more pure form, and its potential for exalted bliss - as the musician leads with his "climatic" passages. Like a surfer, I surf the waves and spiritual vibes created by the musician :) In more esoteric (or potentially convoluted) terms - I believe it works by drowning out the preoccupation with "I" ego and the many corrupt modifications that ego-aware thought brings.

Of course it does not lead to real nirvana in the serious philosophical sense, but it tantalizingly reminds me of the potential of meditating on pure inner consciousness as I am drawn into the music. Hindustani does the same to others I guess (like when I listen to Bhimsenji or the Sarod Masteros and many others) But somehow I am drawn more to the Carnatic form of presentation.

While actual spiritual development is real hard work, to me this is the equivalent of stretching ligaments and muscles before the athletic event and priming ones concentration and motivation for it. :ohyeah: Sadly I am forever getting ready but never really actually doing it :o :rolleyes:

However that does not mean fusion or other music forms cannot entertain and be less enjoyable. Only the goal is different, and when I ignore that goal, I can easily enjoy all other forms of music as well. Just now I was in a Chinese restaurant and they were playing Eagles Live. Somebody at the neighboring table commented that the song would never die - referring to Hotel California that was playing. How true I felt!! It set me off thinking - without the structure and presentation of Indian Classical music, the artists have still achieved what goes beyond ordinary material achievements. Although that form of music may not help bring the same inner state, it is to me still a priceless piece of art to be treasured by all humanity!

Back to the original post by CrissCross - how did a light hearted enthusiastic and casually joyful comment get sidetracked into such a heavy discussion? :) Just wanted to say the intent of my post that followed was never to mean you were wasting your time. On a different day and time I would have likely joined in too!! :ohyeah:

@Sramanujan, yes conversations is well one of the greatest "conversations" I have ever heard between any two musicians. I love the way Stephan Grapelli and L Subramanium have played together, with musical styles so culturally diverse yet mutually complimentary. :clapping:

--G
 
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My 2 cents on Fusion
Fusion essentially stemmed from the confluence of jazz and rock especially in the late sixties when traditional jazz was passing through a lean phase due the huge popularity of soul/pop/rock and especially one day, when Miles Davis watched John Coltrane play his heart out in a club with hardly anyone listening.He decided that he was not going to end up that way and brought out the hugely successful Bitches Brew (incorporating rock elements in jazz ) which started him and a host of other musicians on a path making more money than they had ever earned playing conventional jazz .So Fusion was essentially a commercial and not a purist effort right from the beginning.Most of the exceptional fusion musicians were jazz virtuosos increasing the jazz boundaries with experimental rock.
Many of the forward looking jazz musicians were also attracted towards Indian classical (both Hindustani and Carnatic) since both jazz and Indian classical have their basis in melodic improvisation.
Of course, jazz per se does not have the meditative approach of Indian classical which consists of systematic exploration of each progressive note of the raga , as most of their improvisation in scalar form , hence it is always difficult to fuse the two.
Occasionally as in, CONVERSATIONS, the magic happens for all of us to enjoy.
Cheers
Himadri
 
Oh, them! Right!

Listened... tried a few other tracks I found on YouTube. My verdict: two violinists playing jazz, and one of them happens to be S. Indian. Maybe that is because the fusion is so good one can't see the join? :lol: --- but a Youtube playlist has just taken me on to someone else entirely, and I can't really say, "Oh, this is western now, that was fusion before..."

(the playlist marches on, and now there is some alapana, and yes, the firefox tab tells me that this is LS, and this is definitely Indian. It's nice. Actually, there is a slight western touch... maybe this is Fusion! I ramble....)

If I give the impression that I've gone carnatic fundamentalist (although I am very fussy), let me just add that getting bliss from The Grateful Dead last night!)

(ramble mode... oh, Tanum... must be an RTP... Just changed to that tab to take a look... Live at Royal Albert Hall. Morsing with Tanum: this is something I have seen him do, and it works for me, whereas mridangam with tanum does not)

Anyway, thanks for sending me off on that enjoyable trip into Youtube! Please excuse the stream-of-consciousness!
 
Asit said:
Gobble and Thad,

I was hesitating to comment, because my comments could be deemed biased, as some people in the forum know me as a hardcore classical music person.

Let me give my view anyway. First and foremost, I do not think one has to learn Indian classical music to appreciate it. I have done these experiments many times now in my life, in India and abroad, and have come to the firm conclusion that one has to just open their hearts to the music, keep the windows open, and there comes a time when people embrace it and then look for more depth. Indian classical music is by nature contemplative, one goes deep in oneself through this kind of music.

In my limited experience with fusion type of music, one only scratches the surface of Indian classical music (both Carnatic and north Indian, and I believe they differ only in form, but not in actual content) and hence one cannot really immerse in its depth. This of course is a personal observation. But for me, it does not involve me or haunt me for days to come, and does not help me go deeper into my own self and cannot uplift me from the my worldly senses. For me it's a compromise and is not a replacement for the better thing. For me it's not even a good introduction to Indian classical music for beginners. I honestly think some good film music is a far better introduction. And folk music is way better, because the roots of our music is there.

Call me a purist or whatever, but this, as I said, is only my personal view.

Regards.
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Asit, I don't think Karnatic music can be fully appreciated by a lay person. Hindustani, perhaps yes, because it is a lot more melodic than Karnatic, and (I speak with only a little hearsay knowledge here) perhaps because it is not as "technical" as Karnatic.

A lay person can probably understand the concept of a raaga and how a song and its melody hinges on the 5, 6, or 7 notes in an octave, or the arohanam and avarohanam patterns. However, they will not be able to appreciate the complex stuff, especially the "extempore" free-form parts of Karnatic music. They will not be able to appreciate unusual patterns, or even understand which parts and patterns were truly creative and difficult to render.

At the end of the day, it is music in itself that matters, the quality of certain performances, and its ability to enthrall us with the power of its art. I actually question our need to classify things. Aren't we trapping ourselves in stereotypes by the very act of classifying or grading something? I'm fairly certain that (all forms of) classical music evolved through the collective effort of human beings, not gods. Hence, to throttle their evolution by saying that deviations from the norm (namely, fusion) are necessarily shallow, and that too based on the quality of certain performances and certain attempts is wrong. It is a bit like deriding classical music based on a certain mediocre performance on a given day. To use another analogy, trying to combine say, cubism with impressionism isn't by itself a bad thing. However, to do a really bad job of pulling it off is :-)
 
Not necessarily shallow: i think we have made that point --- just that we finding that many of the efforts in that direction turn out to be shallow. Or worse: just bad music, despite having accomplished musicians involved.

Even "shallow," in itself, is not necessarily bad. There are lots of good shallow pop songs.

I really don't know whether I am justified, any longer, in calling myself a "lay person" with regard to carnatic music, having been listening to it for fifteen years, and with a live-concert attendance that must be well into three figures (my wife diaried nearly fifty in the second half of last year alone, and I missed the entire December season due to ill health), but I have never learnt to sing, or to play an instrument, or lived with musicians, so I do not understand/recognise ragas. Still, the alapana is my favourite part of a performance, and I would describe it as the soul of the music.

I think that CM is a lot more accessible to Westerners than rasikas think it is. The intelectual appreciation is just one facet of the music: it stands, and moves people, perfectly well without it. In comparison with Hindustani music, given that the type of HM that most Westerners know means Ravi Shankar and 45 minute Alaps which are much, much less melodic than the alapana of the South, CM should be easier to cope with! Again, it is not necessary to understand the parts of the song, or the calculations in kalpana swara or the tani, to find them just amazing to listen to.
 
Here is a good western artist who I think "understands" Indian music without trying to be an Indian classical musician i.e in the good tracks!! ;) Bad tracks are always awful any artist any music!! :D NADAKA - Music and Album, Download mp3

You can click on an album and listen to samples on the following page.

--G
 
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Thad E Ginathom said:
Oh, them! Right!

Anyway, thanks for sending me off on that enjoyable trip into Youtube! Please excuse the stream-of-consciousness!
Click to expand...

Hmm fusion need not be compulsory blending on Indian style at each moment. I like the way its not overdone on this album. Each artist sticks to his strengths and roots yet compliment the musical styles in each other.

I just googled for "Konnakol" and found the western world knows it as "Indian Scat Singing"!! :eek: ROTFLMAO :lol:

BTW again a huge difference in the way a younger generation Mahesh or Selvaganesh do Konnakol and in the way a senior artiste like T.H Subhashchandran renders it.

--G
 
Thad E Ginathom said:
Not necessarily shallow: i think we have made that point --- just that we finding that many of the efforts in that direction turn out to be shallow. Or worse: just bad music, despite having accomplished musicians involved.

Even "shallow," in itself, is not necessarily bad. There are lots of good shallow pop songs.

I really don't know whether I am justified, any longer, in calling myself a "lay person" with regard to carnatic music, having been listening to it for fifteen years, and with a live-concert attendance that must be well into three figures (my wife diaried nearly fifty in the second half of last year alone, and I missed the entire December season due to ill health), but I have never learnt to sing, or to play an instrument, or lived with musicians, so I do not understand/recognise ragas. Still, the alapana is my favourite part of a performance, and I would describe it as the soul of the music.

I think that CM is a lot more accessible to Westerners than rasikas think it is. The intelectual appreciation is just one facet of the music: it stands, and moves people, perfectly well without it. In comparison with Hindustani music, given that the type of HM that most Westerners know means Ravi Shankar and 45 minute Alaps which are much, much less melodic than the alapana of the South, CM should be easier to cope with! Again, it is not necessary to understand the parts of the song, or the calculations in kalpana swara or the tani, to find them just amazing to listen to.
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Thanks for providing a different perspective. I could very well be wrong, or perhaps, this is a subjective thing. For example, I also find western classical music very difficult to understand. I attribute it to my lack of knowledge of how western music is structured, the various scales, variations thereof etc. Without sufficient knowledge of the form and formal theory, I find myself appreciating the music itself, but also wonder if there are other dimensions of the piece of performance that I was ignorant of.

Perhaps, a better way to differentiate this is to call it analytical appreciation vs emotional appreciation. I'm not saying that one needs to have actually played or performed. However, some formal knowledge allows for multi-dimensional appreciation at both emotional and intellectual levels.

Again, just some thoughts. Most of you are much much more knowledgeable about music than I am. I didn't mean to argue, just wanted to throw in an observation I had on this subject.
 
No argument: interesting juxtaposition of views (good word, that: learnt it off a classical music LP cover!)

Nadaka: serious musicians there, doing serious stuff in a serious way. Whether I liked it all, or not, is another question entirely. I don't expect to find Vikku Vinayakram, Selvaganesh, [violin-] Ganesh, Sivamani, etc, producing rubbish, they are too good for that, and have too much experience of working around the world.

Phatwave: the page wouldn't load for me.*

Alsiarun... I suspect that many casual listeners to Western classical music could not name all the instruments in an orchestra, let alone understand key signatures and chord structures. There is also the thing that the label, "Western Classical" is used to include the music of several centuries and various cultures. Some of it was always intended to be deep and serious; some of it was intended to be religious; some of it was just the dance music of its time. It is a very hard thing to generalise about, except that it can take a little getting used to the many things that are going on all at once in orchestral music, just as (people tell me!) it can take a little getting used to listening to raga-based music.

Long ago, someone sat me down and said, "Listen to this!" Two LP sides later, I was brought round from a wonderous trip through melody, the most fantastic hamonies, space, my spirit, and at least my corner of the universe. It was my first taste of Mahler (1st symphony). Nobody told me that Mahler is supposed to be one of the more "difficult to listen to" composers.

On the other hand, I was never fond of string quartets, or the solo violin in Western music. When I heard it in Carnatic music, I felt, "Ahhh... that is how a violin is supposed to sound!"

I've always been interested in music, but the experience has to come first: we shouldn't let lack of understanding come in the way of the experience.



*found a fragment on Youtube. Ragam with a rhythmic background... sorry, this is the sort of thing I generally don't like; the sort of thing that leaves me asking, "why? it was good before you did any of that stuff!"
 
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Apologies to the purists looks like I touched a raw nerve by posting about fusion music. Just to clarify I am a novice when it comes to the classical music and I cannot tell one raga from the other. I just pick music that sound pleasant to my ears.

With that disclaimer, I do believe that some of the stuff John McLaughlin did with Vikku Vinaykram, Zakir Hussain etc is very very nice, also some of VM Bhatt stuff with Bella Fleck in Tabula Rasa is excellent.
 
Thad E Ginathom said:
Nadaka: serious musicians there, doing serious stuff in a serious way. Whether I liked it all, or not, is another question entirely. I don't expect to find Vikku Vinayakram, Selvaganesh, [violin-] Ganesh, Sivamani, etc, producing rubbish, they are too good for that, and have too much experience of working around the world.



*found a fragment on Youtube. Ragam with a rhythmic background... sorry, this is the sort of thing I generally don't like; the sort of thing that leaves me asking, "why? it was good before you did any of that stuff!"
Click to expand...


Yeah not everything from Nadaka is good. I just happen to have a compilation of his best over decades hence tend to remember the artiste in superlatives. Of course that when I am not on an "inward journey" trip.

A lot of stuff is made and sold in consumerist culture - so is music. I guess this quality of music comes from those moments where the artist doesn't care because he feels the traditional hard core CM listener will never pick up such a product or judge him by it and the artist self assuredly believes he can make up his fall from grace in the next big kutcheri, with the audience forgiving him for succumbing to the lure of money that a fusion project brought. I also suspect projects are quickly wrapped up as the money for them dries up and the 'failed experiments' are packaged marketed and sold as is to recover the studio costs.

I purchased an album of Mahavishnu orchestra and felt like puking 15 seconds into the 1st track. Never heard the 400 bucks worth cd after that.

--G
 
Thad E Ginathom said:
I really don't know whether I am justified, any longer, in calling myself a "lay person" with regard to carnatic music, having been listening to it for fifteen years, and with a live-concert attendance that must be well into three figures (my wife diaried nearly fifty in the second half of last year alone, and I missed the entire December season due to ill health), but I have never learnt to sing, or to play an instrument, or lived with musicians, so I do not understand/recognise ragas. Still, the alapana is my favourite part of a
Click to expand...

BTW I wanted to earlier, but forgot - Great Going and congratulations! :clapping: You have my Envy. :ohyeah:

I thought you were learning the Mridangam?

On the side, I will be beginning Carnatic violin lessons after I come back from a trip in the next 20 days. It gets frustrating to sit passively listening all the time. figured I really need to do something with my hands to actively appreciate what I listen to. Then intellectual appreciation and being able to discuss finer points of a rendition is paramount to finding ones spot or place in the community of listeners.

--G
 
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