Subwoofer affecting vocals?

[Nitin K]

I noticed lately that if the sub is connected through speaker level inputs from poweramp, it affects the quality of sound from speakers especially treble(evn though sub is off). Does anyone have an idea why this happens if this can be fixed by any tweak.

Subwoofer placement & crossover do affect the overall tonality. But if there are not much placement options & you need to make the sound more crisp with the sub in your system & if you are using Audyssey XT 32 phone app then you can play around with the " MultEQ Filter frequency range " in the app. Mine is set at 4320 hz but you can increase the range to your taste for Audyssey to apply its filters. The higher you go the sharper it sounds & going lower sounds warmer at least in the Marantz.

 

[firearm12]

Subwoofer placement & crossover do affect the overall tonality. But if there are not much placement options & you need to make the sound more crisp with the sub in your system & if you are using Audyssey XT 32 phone app then you can play around with the " MultEQ Filter frequency range " in the app. Mine is set at 4320 hz but you can increase the range to your taste for Audyssey to apply its filters. The higher you go the sharper it sounds & going lower sounds warmer at least in the Marantz.

No i think i maybe misrepesented myself. My sub is powered off. Now if i take a wire from speaker output of my poweramp and connect it to speaker input of my sub with other set of wires parallely to my speakers, i notice slight degradation in audio of my main speakers. Notice that my sub is off actually. I dont know if this is normal behaviour, its understood that connecting sub presents some kind of load to power amp but how would that cause a degradation in sound quality.

 

[drkrack]

I tried to do that but i could not hear the effect while volume was all down on the sub. On careful listening i think its about to do with acoustics in the room, the moment i increase the volume, room starts getting filled up with bass and thats affecting soundstage and probably smearing up highs and mids.

Disconnect your main speakers and run the subwoofer in full volume and max crossover setting ; check if you can hear the vocals and other sounds like cellos ?
If you can faintly hear male vocals, the crossover in the Subwoofer /pre isn't water tight. A situation Not very suitable for music listening, or you have to use it with max 25% volume.
Otherwise try decoupling of subwoofer from floor

Oops sorry didn't read complete , the subwoofer decoupling worked already..

 

[firearm12]

I've been trying to say this since long back. Adding a sub for music (stereo) has never been good. I know my opinion will raise a few eyebrows, but what I experienced is what I say. We are seeing discussion on installation of diffusers and bass traps to reduce bass and another group installing sub woofers to two channel for increasing bass.... .

totally understand your point personally i have also been swapping between these extremes. If a sub is well integrated and room is conducive then music experience is extremely good without any doubt. Bad bass is troublesome which gets accumulated in the room and cause issues. Ideally we need lot of subs and more lots of bas traps so that bad bass is not allowed to grow in the room.

 

[firearm12]

Disconnect your main speakers and run the subwoofer in full volume and max crossover setting ; check if you can hear the vocals and other sounds like cellos ?
If you can faintly hear male vocals, the crossover in the Subwoofer /pre isn't water tight. A situation Not very suitable for music listening, or you have to use it with max 25% volume.
Otherwise try decoupling of subwoofer from floor

Oops sorry didn't read complete , the subwoofer decoupling worked already..

Thanks for reply but my question is a little differnt this time. Pls see post #42

 

[Nitin K]

No i think i maybe misrepesented myself. My sub is powered off. Now if i take a wire from speaker output of my poweramp and connect it to speaker input of my sub with other set of wires parallely to my speakers, i notice slight degradation in audio of my main speakers. Notice that my sub is off actually. I dont know if this is normal behaviour, its understood that connecting sub presents some kind of load to power amp but how would that cause a degradation in sound quality.

Honestly speaking am not aware of this kind of issue since my fronts are wired directly from the amp . Am assuming that you have done the high level connections from the power amp to your sub & then to your fronts. I guess Rel sub-users would be in a better position to answer this one since Rel recommends high-level connections via the sub. How about pming RaghuPB to ask if there is a degradation when his sub is off.

 

[Nitin K]

I've been trying to say this since long back. Adding a sub for music (stereo) has never been good. I know my opinion will raise a few eyebrows, but what I experienced is what I say. We are seeing discussion on installation of diffusers and bass traps to reduce bass and another group installing sub woofers to two channel for increasing bass.... .

With small bookshelf speakers in a room with space constraint, a well-integrated subwoofer would bring life to the system. Without a sub, small speakers would sound anemic for music with less bass & especially more so for movies. Bigger floorstanders are in a better position to do so without a sub for music. But each one would have their personal tastes.

 

[raghupb]

Honestly speaking am not aware of this kind of issue since my fronts are wired directly from the amp . Am assuming that you have done the high level connections from the power amp to your sub & then to your fronts. I guess Rel sub-users would be in a better position to answer this one since Rel recommends high-level connections via the sub. How about pming RaghuPB to ask if there is a degradation when his sub is off.

If I understand @firearm12's scenario, the sub is the first point of entry of signal from amp.
Then it is looped out to mains.
REL does not have this. It is straight tap from amp terminals.
No the sub does not degrade SQ when off. I use this mode quite often.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[robin3989]

If I understand @firearm12's scenario, the sub is the first point of entry of signal from amp.
Then it is looped out to mains.
REL does not have this. It is straight tap from amp terminals.
No the sub does not degrade SQ when off. I use this mode quite often.

Cheers,
Raghu

As far as I know, high level sub inputs work like this.
Sub will receive the entire frequency range from the Amp, and based on the crossover point, the low frequencies are amplified to operate the sub woofer driver. The mid and high frequencies (above the XO point) are supplied to the speaker out / binding posts.

So, ideally when the sub is off, all the frequencies should pass to the speaker output terminal, allowing the mains to handle the lows too. If this doesn't happen, try crossing XO on the sub as low as possible and listen. Its strange that the signals are altered even when the sub is off.

Subwoofers like REL, recommends high level connection, they claim they have the circuit to handle such high voltage presented in the high level connection. But, this is not how usual sub amps are designed to work. You feed the lfe from the preamp to the sub to keep the sub amp optimally perform. Feeding high level is not advisable unless the manufacturer recommends.

 

[robin3989]

Music with less bass, I believe was meant to sound with less bass. When you add a sub to increase the bass in the songs with less bass, what you are doing is coloring or corrupting the sound, IMHO. Again I don't want to start a debate here. Those who fancy the sub woofer sound are free to listen that way. For me, for music.......no sub.

I agree with you on the difficulty experienced while integrating the sub with 2-way bookshelf speaker based stereo setup. But when the musical track has bass notes that the bookshelf speakers are incapable of reproducing, you eventually miss out the low end extension of the original music itself.

Infact, getting a passive crossover for the mid driver to seamlessly integrate with tweeter in most of the 2-way stand mounts or floorstanders itself is complex, but achieved to a great extent with minimal compromises. I would like 2 channel stereo listening to have necessary drivers (3-way or even 4-way) integrated using a passive xo, driven by 1 amp, without needing a seperate sub box.

 

[arj]

If I understand @firearm12's scenario, the sub is the first point of entry of signal from amp.
Then it is looped out to mains.
REL does not have this. It is straight tap from amp terminals.
No the sub does not degrade SQ when off. I use this mode quite often.

Cheers,
Raghu

Exactly and thats true for most subs which keep the input signal low. Unfortunately most folks have not heard as well setup sub and hence the misconception. and thats easy to understand since setting up a sub is not easy and takes time and petience

Once you do it you get a true full range at a fraction of the cost of a full range speaker.

 

[Nitin K]

Actually Preth, a bookshelf cannot cover the full range of frequencies that a floorstander can cover. A subwoofer here is not for more bass but to fill in the incomplete bass frequencies to the best of its abilities. Hence a subwoofer is generally required( not a must based on personal preferences) with small speakers, especially for music. Yes, it is an adjustment. But isn't life too an adjustment.

 

[robin3989]

Well in that case Robin, all the big names in speaker manufacturing business should say, ' here's our offering...a bookshelf speaker, an incomplete piece of equipment though...if you you want the complete unit, buy the suggested sub woofer too'.

No, that's not my point. My point is, when it comes to speakers, one should aim for one box solution for 2 channel stereo setup, than having seperates. A multi driver speaker, that easily picks up at 30hz and goes flat all the way till the audible range and driven by a single amp would better suit and eliminate the need for an external sub powered by a sub amp.

 

[firearm12]

If I understand @firearm12's scenario, the sub is the first point of entry of signal from amp.
Then it is looped out to mains.
REL does not have this. It is straight tap from amp terminals.
No the sub does not degrade SQ when off. I use this mode quite often.

Cheers,
Raghu

The sub is not first point of entry. I connected the sub high level speaker inputs directly to amp speaker outs, my speakers are also connected to same terminals parallelly. Its not huge degradation but its noticiable, especially treble is smoothened and not so crisp. Maybe with new technologies in newer subs in it doesnt impact these days but i am wondering if it can be fixed anyhow . if i use preamp inputs then there is no issue but then i domt like the bass sound .

 

[robin3989]

The sub is not first point of entry. I connected the sub high level speaker inputs directly to amp speaker outs, my speakers are also connected to same terminals parallelly. Its not huge degradation but its noticiable, especially treble is smoothened and not so crisp. Maybe with new technologies in newer subs in it doesnt impact these days but i am wondering if it can be fixed anyhow . if i use preamp inputs then there is no issue but then i domt like the bass sound .

I think, the sub and main speakers will present such a high load on amp. I thought, your sub was the first point of entry and the main speakers were connected to the speaker outputs of sub. Or the sub only has high level input but not the output?

 

[firearm12]

I think, the sub and main speakers will present such a high load on amp. I thought, your sub was the first point of entry and the main speakers were connected to the speaker outputs of sub. Or the sub only has high level input but not the output?

The sub only has one high level input and one preamp level input, nothing else.

 

[firearm12]

For anyone interested, this is an interesting article on web regarding subwoofers. Its not all about bass. And subwoofers are often better integrated with floorstanders than bookshelves because floorstanders can go below to a certain frequency so that sub takes over seamlessly. For a reason its called subwoofer and not a woofer its supposed to produce very low frequncies that a speaker driver cannot produce.

Using a Subwoofer in a System with no Subwoofer Output

Do you want more bass in your audio system, but don't know the best way to connect a subwoofer? Crack the sub-bass code with this guide from Upscale Audio!

upscaleaudio.com

 

[robin3989]

For anyone interested, this is an interesting article on web regarding subwoofers. Its not all about bass. And subwoofers are often better integrated with floorstanders than bookshelves because floorstanders can go below to a certain frequency so that sub takes over seamlessly. For a reason its called subwoofer and not a woofer its supposed to produce very low frequncies that a speaker driver cannot produce.

Using a Subwoofer in a System with no Subwoofer Output

Do you want more bass in your audio system, but don't know the best way to connect a subwoofer? Crack the sub-bass code with this guide from Upscale Audio!

upscaleaudio.com

This is very true. Getting a 12 or 15inch subwoofer claimed to do 20hz and pairing with a small bookshelf that has -6db slope at 70hz is a disaster. The graph will end up having a hole in the upper bass region and the sub will sound completely disconnected. A 2-way floorstander, or even a 3-way design better blend with big subwoofer, than a bookshelf.

 

[raghupb]

The sub is not first point of entry. I connected the sub high level speaker inputs directly to amp speaker outs, my speakers are also connected to same terminals parallelly. Its not huge degradation but its noticiable, especially treble is smoothened and not so crisp. Maybe with new technologies in newer subs in it doesnt impact these days but i am wondering if it can be fixed anyhow . if i use preamp inputs then there is no issue but then i domt like the bass sound .

Sorry. My bad. I didn't read from the start of the thread.
Your sub, connection wise, is almost the same as REL T9i (one I have)
Wonder if the sub circuit is presenting any impedance even if it is off?

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[robin3989]

The sub only has one high level input and one preamp level input, nothing else.

If you have a spare amp, try the below and let me know if you like.
Split the Preamp/source out. A passive preamp like schiit sys could do. Or even a Y cable. Feed to a spare amp (a cheap class D module is also fine) and your main amp. Drive the speakers using the main amp and feed the subwoofer from the spare amp. Sorry for adding complexity to the existing chain, but if you like the sound, worth the try.