The effect of cables - A sane debate

Audio is a sensory perception. Why do you guys look for so much science in it? If something pleases your ears, enjoy. Don’t delve into the science part then:)

Do you deconstruct every chicken tikka or masala dosa that you eat? :)
 
Audio is a sensory perception. Why do you guys look for so much science in it? If something pleases your ears, enjoy. Don’t delve into the science part then:)
Sorry, but being scientifically inclined, I just cannot let sleeping dogs lie. :)

Do you deconstruct every chicken tikka or masala dosa that you eat? :)
No, but if I wanted to, I could and I know that my mother does. She's anal like me! :)
 
@keith_correa
Very well put sir.

My 2 cents. Sorry for the long post.

There are two statements that defies logic for me in audio:

1. Manufacturers stating our solid state amp is closest to tube like sound.
2. The advt. jargon or the hifi reviews which states this cable, amp, DAC etc reproduces the original music as created in the studio.

How does one know the original studio character of the music (I doubt even the music director can recall it to perfection). The only way to get an original mix is a studio release, but even that does not guarantee if that was how it sounded in the studio.

The only way to know if a system can reproduce perfect music is to hear with pink noise which has uniform SPL over the auditory band. I wonder how many can do that, so pink noise is more a measuring tool.

That is why I personally have a collection of tracks with a manual that gives the position of the instruments, the loudness ratio between instruments etc.

I stick to a select few songs that I am attuned to, to assess a system for staging, imaging and depth. Most decent systems can do the above physical characteristics reasonably well as that is how the mixing was done in those recordings.

The differences that one hears are mainly in presentation which is mostly the character of mainly the speaker, its positioning and to some extent DAC, pre and amp aswell, to accentuate certain frequencies.
I am not coming here to room response at all as that can be corrected, but not the character of the component. A bright speaker will present a bright presentation unless it is tweaked.
Like the popular American terms West Coast and East Coast Sounds....one attuned to smooth delivery and the other dynamic and in your face presentation.

With speakers, I can understand sound character being modified by design as that is what we ultimately listen to.
But with other components like DAC, pre and amp, it should ideally be neutral to reproduce the original character of the music.
That is why I wince when companies state their solid state amp is engineered to sound like a tube amp. I personally don't want my amp or any other component in the chain to add any character to music.
Yes, amplifiers have a presentation based on its Class....Class A, B, AB, T and now the latest in thing the Class D. Class A sounds the best but at a great loss of energy due to its gross inefficiency and size as power demand goes up. Class D has now come a long way due to its efficiency and compactness.

I have read many a times that in a properly configured system with proper room treatment, the change of cables should bring the most glaring changes.
I have to disagree. If the cables are of reasonably good quality, which means their audio affecting characters like capacitance, resistance etc. are well within the tolerance limit, the cable changes should have the least effect.
The duty of cables are to pass on information from one component to the other without loss in signal strength and not allowing extraneous signals like noise if any to pass thorough.
But in a properly configured system, the system noise is well taken care at the power input stage and the components would have in built circuitry to reduce it to inaudible levels.
That is the reason for my contention that a cable's main duty is to transport the signal with close to zero loss (a few milli volts will not make any difference though).
The reason silver cables are considered to give more of the high frequencies is primarily due to better conductivity, that does not mean copper does not output high frequencies, just that in silver it is a little louder probably dues to a little lesser resistance than copper.

I am though not averse at all to try suggestions if it is within my affordability limits and agnostic if not absolutely scientific.
I was not averse to doubling the interconnect, but I am already running a short 12awg speaker cable so doubling that defied logic, so left it.
These experiments do help to learn and unlearn, though it will vary from person to person.

Though many audiophiles and hifi magazines use flowery terms, there is absolutely no denying the fact that the music that is brought into our home is and will remain a scientific marvel and bound by scientific limitations.

Cheers and happy listening.
 
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BTW, Galen is no longer with Belden because from what I understand, Belden had no inclination to take his Iconoclast cables to the masses the way he wanted them to. Even when he was working with Belden, during the development and sales of the cables, Belden would only provide the cables but the termination etc would be done by a 3rd party, so, finished products not being Belden's core.....
Galen is a man of science and his cables are very well regarded for their cost by people who've tried them BUT he expains the effect of each and every cable of his scientifically. That's more than I can say for most manufacturers who keep things under wraps giving the impression that cables are a black art.
 
Iconoclast cables are expensive. Starts at USD 2300 for a 10 ft pair for TPC and goes up to USD 4600 for a 10 ft pair for other variants
 
feel more than ic and speaker cables, the quality of power supply and the power cables has a much greater im
I always felt, what significant difference does the Last 1 - 2 meter of Power Cable make, when cabling from Electric Grid to the HT Socket is mostly not under User control?
Things Changed after I got few good power cables for home trial and I ended up changing the Cabling of My HT room and added a dedicated Stabilizer. Yes, Cables do make a difference especially when the quality of Power isn't upto the mark locally.

Recently I did a DIY Speaker cable using 6 x 4Sqmm Finolex cables. They were quite bright in my setup with monitor audio. A friend tried them with his SCM 11s and observed a phenomenal difference over Chord Clearway. On retrospect the calculated gauge of DIY cable would be 8awg as against 14awg of Chord Clearway. Scientifically our experience can be justified easily.
Attaching a Picture for ref
IMG-20180828-WA0025.jpg

What's the experience with using power cables with higher Guage like 6sqmm for speakers? Also how do the Good power cables (with 2/3 wires with insulation) fare as speaker cables?
 
This is the second time that "with insulation" is mentioned. The first time I posted a sarcastic response which probably went beyond.
Is there ever an option of using uninsulated wires in any situation? Am I missing something here?
 
This is the second time that "with insulation" is mentioned. The first time I posted a sarcastic response which probably went beyond.
Is there ever an option of using uninsulated wires in any situation? Am I missing something here?
When I tested the hollowed out non-insulated copper cable (more a rod than a cable ;) for speaker wiring, I could not find anything to insulate it. But since it was not that very flexible, I could somehow keep the pairs for shorting during testing.
 
It's always a great feeling to uncover hidden gems. And it's even better if the gems are reasonably priced and can be obtained easily.
 
When I tested the hollowed out non-insulated copper cable (more a rod than a cable ;) for speaker wiring, I could not find anything to insulate it. But since it was not that very flexible, I could somehow keep the pairs for shorting during testing.

You used two runs of the copper tubing - one each for + and - leads?
 
I always felt, what significant difference does the Last 1 - 2 meter of Power Cable make, when cabling from Electric Grid to the HT Socket is mostly not under User control?
Things Changed after I got few good power cables for home trial and I ended up changing the Cabling of My HT room and added a dedicated Stabilizer. Yes, Cables do make a difference especially when the quality of Power isn't upto the mark locally.

Recently I did a DIY Speaker cable using 6 x 4Sqmm Finolex cables. They were quite bright in my setup with monitor audio. A friend tried them with his SCM 11s and observed a phenomenal difference over Chord Clearway. On retrospect the calculated gauge of DIY cable would be 8awg as against 14awg of Chord Clearway. Scientifically our experience can be justified easily.
Attaching a Picture for ref
View attachment 29803

What's the experience with using power cables with higher Guage like 6sqmm for speakers? Also how do the Good power cables (with 2/3 wires with insulation) fare as speaker cables?
The big question is cables within speaker box are sometimes average type.Sound do change when different cable come in chain.
 
in speakers even the crossover component quality and type make huge difference in the final outcome ime.
 
The big question is cables within speaker box are sometimes average type.Sound do change when different cable come in chain.
Should we be opening the speaker boxes to check? I think if its sounding good that we shouldn't be .
Also I've observed is the inter Socket wires tend to be of inferior quality, so even if you draw a 4Sqmm line to your HT Socket the final wire that connects to that particular Socket may be deficient.
 
If u open to check then warranty will not apply

It's OK for DIY speakers but not for branded ones
 
An interesting article written by Galen Gareis and Gautam Raja on how to design high performance audio cables. Gareis was the designer of the Iconoclast line of Belden cables. There are parts 2 and 3 for those inclined. To sum up the gist, they contend that making a good cable is mainly about weave geometry and dielectric used.

https://www.psaudio.com/article/cables-time-is-of-the-essence-part-1/

(Thanks Keith for the article).
 
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