The effect of cables - A sane debate

[Hari Iyer]

Hari, how’s what is being discussed in the articles close to telephone wire design? To begin with he recommends Teflon as dielectric. Also the geometry of the iconoclast cable design is so different. Velocity of propagation is discussed. Cables that we use do not have vp of 87. Nordost is the other cable that attaches a lot of importance to velocity of propagation. Microwave cables like Gore have high vp. Or am I missing something?

It's not Teflon, but FEP plastic which has a dielectric of 2.15, while PE has dielectric of 2.2 - close enough. The weave geometry is different and is meant more to keep capacitance and inductance low. The Iconocast has dual pair weaved geometry to achieve this. In my case I have used twisted pair and have again twisted the +/ - polarity to keep mutual inductance and parasitic capacitance low. My cable has a lower capacitance of 70 pF than Iconocast for the same length. Inductance is just 5 uH for entire length of 4 meters.
I don't know how to measure the VP
The copper wire diameter is same at 0.020" (0.5mm) as in Iconocast. The copper purity is 99.7% drawn from rod electrode cathode, where as Iconocast is 99.99% pure copper. The main difference is the Iconocast uses 24 + 24 core wire and I use 8 + 8 core wire. For my puny amp of 6 Watts per channel its should be good enough.

 

[keith_correa]

PTFE and FEP have the same dielectric constant.

 

[jls001]

You may like what this guy has done, explained all with illustrations ! Loads of interesting info. Power cables too !!!

http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-interconnect-cable.html

At one point I seriously considered trying his recipes. Mechanically they're all do-able.

 

[jls001]

Check out this datasheet:


Teflon is a generic brand name for FEP? I thought Teflon = PTFE?

 

[prem]

I don’t understand the technicalities Hari. But yours is a simple Litz wire. Many brands use Litz wire for their ic and speaker cable

 

[Hari Iyer]

Is there a slow or fast cable. If yes, how to identify if a cable is fast or slow? If the music slows down is it slow and vice versa. What should be the optimum speed? Some where in-between?

 

[prem]

Nordost is the only company I have seen which mentions velocity of propagation. I thought it was some marketing gimmick. But Iconoclast also mentions vp in their specs. Normally cables that we use are in the region of 60-70. From what I have understood higher the better. Iconoclast is 87. Most high end Nordost cables are 80+

 

[jls001]

Amazing air dielectric HJ8-50B cable:

View attachment 29847

Super rigid. Bending radius will be of the order of a meter at least

It's meant for microwave frequencies so notice the use of ribbed/corrugated copper pipe as center conductor to take full advantage of skin effect.

 

[prem]

The Polk Audio Cobra cable is something I will be trying sometime as a speaker cable It’s a Litz design. The designer of my amp, David Berning, uses it as his speaker cable for his personal listening.

 

[Kannan]

Notwithstanding whatever is mentioned in the PSAudio articles to justify the Iconoclast models of Belden and other exotic cables like Nordost, Audioquest, JPS, Siltech etc

Low Level audio signals:
The effect of inductance in audio interconnect cables is negligible, so is the wire resistance (as it is much lower than both the output and input stages) and skin effect is highly negligible.

So the ratio of output versus input impedance added to the cable capacitance is what causes a roll off in frequency response by acting as a low pass filter.
The smaller the ratio, higher the roll off.
Even here it has been proved that for a normal 2 meter RCA cable with a capacitance of 300 and with 1000 ohm impedance of the feeder (output), the deviation is only 0.02 dB at 20 kHz.

Anyhow, in most pre-amp stages, it is well taken care of as the output impedance is usually under 100 ohms (except tube gear) and the input impedance of amps is usually 100000 ohms and above.
Most good cables including whatever dielectric used, offer way lower capacitance.

I would primarily look at a cable with good build, shielding, solid connectors and published capacitance values.

Reading the article has given me the impression that Beldon has also entered the voodoo region with its Iconoclast model.

 

[rikhav]

Okay getting back to the double cable method introduced by Joshua to us
I tried it today, could not do it as I needed help with double run of speaker cables from Joshua
Could not visit him due to various family issues and work
I wanted to try doubling of interconnects and speaker cables at one go
Sound has surely changed for good. Infact the setup has gained a new sound signature with this tweak
Very open sounding and extremely textured bass and mids.
The vocals have presence like we get when using a SET amp.
Of course all this is very relative. I am comparing vocals to that of a SET amp to just denote that vocals have huge presence now
The sound may have lost a small bit of delicacy in the highs btut I am more then happy to sacrifice that small bit for much improved mid range and bass
The sound has not lost any details in highs

It surely does create a big mess at the back of the rack and always will have to check before powering the amp if any connector is touching each or not
But still absolutely worth it

 

[heliumflight]

Okay getting back to the double cable method introduced by Joshua to us
I tried it today, could not do it as I needed help with double run of speaker cables from Joshua
Could not visit him due to various family issues and work
I wanted to try doubling of interconnects and speaker cables at one go
Sound has surely changed for good. Infact the setup has gained a new sound signature with this tweak
Very open sounding and extremely textured bass and mids.
The vocals have presence like we get when using a SET amp.
Of course all this is very relative. I am comparing vocals to that of a SET amp to just denote that vocals have huge presence now
The sound may have lost a small bit of delicacy in the highs btut I am more then happy to sacrifice that small bit for much improved mid range and bass
The sound has not lost any details in highs

It surely does create a big mess at the back of the rack and always will have to check before powering the amp if any connector is touching each or not
But still absolutely worth it

Can you click an image of what a double cable method looks like.

 

[Kannan]

Can you click an image of what a double cable method looks like.

Check earlier posts, there are images of both how to use a splitter and how to wedge two cables into a single connector for interconnects.
With speakers, you just need to run two parallel cables.

 

[drkrack]

Combination in parallel? Or Biwire?
DAC xtreme is thick wire 11awg around and has better mid

In parallel both cables connected to all binding posts , interestingly Connecting Kimber and DAC extreme cable in a single Banana plug makes the magic vanish totally. Connecting them separately to speaker and amp binding posts, preserves the SQ benefits. DAC extreme cable didn't sound good with Vidar any way, so it's serving some purpose now. The brightness of Kimber and Lack of depth in Low end gets corrected when DAC extreme is added. I never had good success with 2 speaker cables earlier. The onkyo amp used to get heated unbearably whenever I tried combining bluejeans and MX 12awg. Even Vidar runs slightly more hotter whenever double cables are used.

Double interconnect is what I need to try now. Luckily there's enough information on this thread to go about, Let's see.

 

[Kannan]

Double interconnect is what I need to try now. Luckily there's enough information on this thread to go about, Let's see.

I would advice not the take the splitter route if your interconnects are of the heavy type. But that would mean opening the existing cable.
However of you have spare cables, then you can wedge two cables into a single connector.
It is supposed to give better results than the splitter method.

Good luck.

I did not get good results with the cables in my hand (which was a mix) using a splitter nor with a bare Mogami after wedging two into the connector.

However, I will be getting back my Blue Jeans cables (I have 3 pairs of different lengths) back tomorrow which I had loaned to friend, but will have to take only the splitter route as I don't want to risk in opening these factory terminated cables.

 

[jls001]

I did not get good results with the cables in my hand (which was a mix) using a splitter nor with a bare Mogami after wedging two into the connector.

@Kannan: I hope you doubled the entire chain from source to speakers? The full benefit comes on completing the chain.

 

[Kannan]

@Kannan: I hope you doubled the entire chain from source to speakers? The full benefit comes on completing the chain.

Actually the speaker cables are 12awg already and the spare Klotz is also 12awg. Combining it makes it just too thick, and also my run is not long.
However regarding the rest of the chain, my DAC has inbuilt preamp, so I essentially used only one pair of interconnects in my entire chain between the DAC/pre and power amp.

 

[jls001]

Actually the speaker cables are 12awg already and the spare Klotz is also 12awg. Combining it makes it just too thick, and also my run is not long.
However regarding the rest of the chain, my DAC has inbuilt preamp, so I essentially used only one pair of interconnects in my entire chain between the DAC/pre and power amp.

I wouldn't worry too much about the thickness as long as the binding posts can handle it. Currently I use Sommer Quadrablue which is a quad cable (4 sqmm per conductor = nearly 11 AWG -- 2 leads per polarity), together with another speaker which is 2 sqmm (~14 AWG).

 

[Kannan]

I wouldn't worry too much about the thickness as long as the binding posts can handle it. Currently I use Sommer Quadrablue which is a quad cable (4 sqmm per conductor = nearly 11 AWG -- 2 leads per polarity), together with another speaker which is 2 sqmm (~14 AWG).

ok...will try both with interconnects and speaker cables after i get my RCAs in hand.
Hope it works as it means nil investment for me.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Check out cable capacitance after you run them in parallel if you lay them in close proximity. It can lead to oscillation if you are running a SS amp.