To DAC or not to DAC

[sud98]

I have been going through various threads on DACs in avsforum and I am a bit confused on the topic of DAC and sources itself.

The core idea being that the differences between two well-built DACs (ie. no obviously bad engg), there should be no discerning sound difference between a $200 DAC and a $10,000 DAC. The differences in the effect of a DAC is so minute that you may as well use the money to buy a better speaker or manage the room to get a bigger effect on the quality of sound that you hear.

While there have been many publications and scientific tests done to prove the same. The DAC industry seems to be still flourishing and I see every day even in this forum people asking for thousands of dollars worth of DACs to be purchased. So what am I missing?


Some of the publications which support this theory

Masters, Ian G. and Clark, D. L., "Do All CD Players Sound the Same?", Stereo Review, pp.50-57 (January 1986)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.76-84 (December 1988)

Pohlmann, Ken C., "The New CD Players, Can You Hear the Difference?", Stereo Review, pp.60-67 (October 1990)
CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.
CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

Moore, BCJ. An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing, Fourth Edition. San Diego: Academic Press, 1997.

A good description of a well defined listening test is described here
What is a blind ABX test ? - Hydrogenaudio Forums

While one can choose to build a tool like Project ABX or use free programs like that built in foobar.

Since, we do have a lot of meets planned (Navi Mumbai/Chennai), is it possible to conduct the same. The idea being it needs to follow the steps of a formal DBT as well as all the sources need to level matched by using a watt meter or any similar device.

If we actually find that there is no difference, people can then use that money on items that have a bigger impact like speakers or even the room and find a significant improvement on the same.

If we do find a difference, it might be good for us as a group to have discovered something that others might have missed.

 

[koushik]

While there have been many publications and scientific tests done to prove the same.

Please site some example of the scientific research, that you are talking about, that took place and proved that V-DAC etc and Theta/Wadia etc weren't distinguished successfully.

Who were the scientists/Engineers who organised the tests?
Who were the volunteers to take the tests?

Cheers!

 

[Shivam]

I clearly hear a difference in the NAD CD player's DAc and the similarly costing MF DAC. In short - The NAD has tighter bass and MF has better vocals.

How could they not hear the differences in different costing and different quality DACs ? I do agree that speakers, room acoustics etc are important but DAC too plays an important role and sound differences are quite obvious.

 

[Safar]

I clearly hear a difference in the NAD CD player's DAc and the similarly costing MF DAC. In short - The NAD has tighter bass and MF has better vocals.

How could they not hear the differences in different costing and different quality DACs ? I do agree that speakers, room acoustics etc are important but DAC too plays an important role and sound differences are quite obvious.

+1 to that.

Whatever high end speakers or amplifiers you use, the result will clearly depend on what you throw at them. An analog signal of all the instruments and vocals with clear separation and low noise is the primary concern. Each of this electronics machines have their own distinct characteristics due the components used and the complexity of the circuit.

 

[arj]

whenever you do this test Please make sure that the Cables/Amp and Speakers are resolving enough to throw up difference.
If they become the bottleneck you will not find any Difference !

 

[hifipal4all]

whenever you do this test Please make sure that the Cables/Amp and Speakers are resolving enough to throw up difference.
If they become the bottleneck you will not find any Difference !

Without this ... it's a 100% waste of time trying to compare DACs or any other components in the chain. Most of the comparison sessions end up with wrong judgements/conclusions bcoz of this reason.

 

[cooltoad]

whenever you do this test Please make sure that the Cables/Amp and Speakers are resolving enough to throw up difference.
If they become the bottleneck you will not find any Difference !

How do we know our system/components are resolving enough? Is it based on the budget of the system? Generally, we get the idea that low end or entry level systems do not benefit from exponential increase in cost of associated components. Is there any starting point from which we can perceive the diferences?


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[Thad E Ginathom]

I don't believe that cost is necessarily anything to do with it. It might be that the absurdly cheap ODAC is almost equal sounding to something ten times its price --- which is, apart from engineering tests and measurements, the test that its designer set himself. It is the ObjectiveDAC by name and design, but NwAvGuy has ears as well as a lab and he uses them.

Does all digital music-playing equipment sound the same? If all DACs sounded identical, it would. A "DAC" consists, not only the actual DAC chip, but also of other components, and, above all, some circuitry that handles analogue signals. We should not forget that, when we look at its output, it is not a digital device, it is an analogue device --- so, surely, all bets are off on the idea of them sounding the same? And, if they do, then we don't need anything but the DAC in our phones, or built in to our motherboards. And they cost a couple of dollars each.

Listening tests tell us what we like, and usually determine what we buy. Certainly they are far more important than the manufacturer's specs. No one carries a test suite around, and few, outside of pro studios or the more enthusiastic DIYers, would want to invest in the necessary equipment and expertise anyway. But psychology is included.

 

[arj]

How do we know our system/components are resolving enough? Is it based on the budget of the system? Generally, we get the idea that low end or entry level systems do not benefit from exponential increase in cost of associated components. Is there any starting point from which we can perceive the diferences?


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no i did not mean cost but unfortunately and a bit out of touch with the offerings in the market these days.. I guess for looking at a DAC a good headphone Amp + headphones might be the most cost effective alternative.

Unfortunately while all the good stuff costs money not all the expensive stuff are good

 

[Jams4znik03]

There are multiple factors which can influence ones perception on sound especially the DAC component where the differentiator is more refined and minute:

- The listener and his experience so far. It depends what he has heard so far. Eg. if you have always listened to a sound from an average sounding TV, you may be unaware what acutally is real SQ.

- The choice of listening - What are you primary habitual to listening - Movies, music, etc. Even in music what sort of music. This in itself can make huge difference. For eg. if I were to listen to a 1950 /50/60 Hindi song, I may barely see a difference, reason being the sound was not liberated enough with so much details, instruments and finally thequality of the studio recording itself.

So this is indeed a very subjective issue. An trained ear will indeed discern the the difference between the DACs and the overall assumption is always that the quality of interconnects, the media source is of a reasonably high quality, else the details will all be lost in the transmission losses itself along the way.

 

[sud98]

whenever you do this test Please make sure that the Cables/Amp and Speakers are resolving enough to throw up difference.
If they become the bottleneck you will not find any Difference !

Isnt that the point? If one doesnt have high resolution speakers, then one should upgrade that first then look at other aspects in the chain. On the flip side, how does one know if your speaker is resolving enough unless we do a double blind test?

 

[tirthankar]

Isnt that the point? If one doesnt have high resolution speakers, then one should upgrade that first then look at other aspects in the chain. On the flip side, how does one know if your speaker is resolving enough unless we do a double blind test?

This is circular. You cannot hear the difference if your chain is not resolving enough, you will not be taking advantage of the resolution of the system if the source is not true enough.

Its a given that the speakers are the most important part of the chain as they are the ones which make the signal audible. Hence their selection should be done first. But imo, after that the source is the most important as that creates the signal in the first place.

And DBT, while a good proposition, is not the end of the world. There are things about a systems musicality which grows on one with extended listening, and is obvious only on going back to what was there before the change.

Hope this thread does not turn into "To DBT or not to DBT"..

 

[koushik]

While there have been many publications and scientific tests done to prove the same.

So may I assume that this holds no credibility?

 

[arj]

Isnt that the point? If one doesnt have high resolution speakers, then one should upgrade that first then look at other aspects in the chain. On the flip side, how does one know if your speaker is resolving enough unless we do a double blind test?

I seem to be missing something as I did not really understand this. If you do a DBT and no differences come up how do you know it is because of the DACs being the same or the rest of the chain not resolving enough to show the difference ? its not just speakers..but Amp/cable as well which can be a bottleneck

 

[jai1611]

Isn't the scientific argument more about all amps sounding the same? This is the first I've heard of all DACs supposedly sounding the same.

In my experience, the difference from a source in a resolving system is substantial

 

[koushik]

In my experience, the difference from a source in a resolving system is substantial

Absolutely. +1

Also, I think we don't even need high resolving setup to identify that. A mid-fi (or low-fi) can be used to get better sound with better DAC (source).

 

[arj]

Isn't the scientific argument more about all amps sounding the same? This is the first I've heard of all DACs supposedly sounding the same.

In my experience, the difference from a source in a resolving system is substantial

I too agree ..but imagine this experiment somehow ends up with a result that all DACs sound do the same due to any of the other facts (other than the possibility that they do sound the same in reality !), the results are going to be quoted a zillion times and as many heated threads springing up in both sides