Usher in the house!!!

[odyssey]

Hi Particleman
I agree, but realistically this is much harder to do. A manufacturer will probably see it more as "all products in India are going to get the same treatment a.k.a - import duties" so the playing field to some extent is levelled across all products. We do bring this up to manufacturers, some are sympathetic but they have other reasons for not doing this, including if word gets out that they can operate at a lower margin then the other distributors worldwide wont spare them

cheers

 

[particleman]

Thanks for your reply, Sridhar. It clears a lot of doubts I had.

If this is the case, then we must expect more from our domestic manufacturers. As Ranjeetrain has mentioned in the other thread, they can easily capitalize on their advantages and dominate the market. Better prices, innovative features -- both are within their grasp.

 

[soundsgreat]

Hi,
Sridhar I agree with you totally that there's 1000 things involved in bringing a product and selling it under certain pricing !! but the thing is what you say is very commonly understood (atleast for me) that the duty structure in india is worse,For the indian government Us Audio folks are cash cows and they wont let us go easy without milking us dry !!

But I will ask Simple question if a product (Origins apart) has 100$ price tag in the US and the Same product after all the duties paid comes to 65-70$ in india,How many distributers and dealers are ready to sell it at 75-80$ ??? According me few to none !! nobody wants to pass on the benefit to the end user and also one of the other reasons for not lowering the prices is the typical indian mentality ( some I hate it !! call me what you want) ,A buyer sees a product which is 100% technically sound and priced at very realistic levels with out any gimmicks or re-views in any mags , in the same place or else where another product which is of the same type which has all the bells & whistles a good 4-5 star re-view etc etc priced twice or even 5 times,He goes and buys the latter one then the former one just coz some mag said its good or he thinks of this product is priced at 5 times higher then the other then there must be something special !!

This is the mentality !! now who to blame in this case ??? the dealer who is honestly trying pass the benefit by pricing it cheaper ?? So this is never ending story ,the blame game continues till the eternity !!

Am mixing a bit here and adding the indian Vs imported debate (reason to show typical indian mentality)

A prime example I'll give you guys, I've made my Towers ( you all know bout it) using 100% indian components (except for the finish) and so far who all have heard have all liked it very much (many have even asked me to launch it commercially) but there were a couple of people who Auditioned it and the moment I said that it was made with 100% Locally (its geographical, not cheap) produced components,they just ruled it out by just ignoring and not showing any interests from that moment.So you guys figure it out !!

Also this is one of the reasons I hesitate to show any thing that I make !!

Same example's can given for imported aswell, one such example is wharfedale pacific evolution though they are phenomenally priced very few takers of it !!

well can go on and on but don't want to bore you guys,

My bottom line is : Let both the buyers and dealers act wisely and co-exist cordially. Let the Buyer pay for the product not the hype around it !! and Let the seller price it for what it is and for not what he wants it to be !!


Regards.

 

[odyssey]

Hi Soundsgreat
Yes, the hype surrounding advertisement and reviews is there. Dealers and distributors know this, so they will advertize in magazines, etc ..hell, we will have to do this too at some point. I am sure you guys know the cost for one print ad in say "what hi-fi", its so high that the costs need to be recovered. I agree with your assessment that some dealers will not sell for a smaller margin even if they could, but this as I said before is really up to them in terms of how they want to do business and also balance the cost of doing business (ads, showroom costs, etc).
I cant agree with you more on the attitude that foreign is better...but this will change over time. Even in the western market there is that attitude towards asian made components and people are more accepting of it now than they were 5 years back. I have seen this both in the west and now see it here as well, but this is what defines people who are in it for the passion vs pure business from the dealer side and passion/interest vs. showpiece/style statement for the consumer.

cheers

 

[SKR]

Hi Shridhar,
First let me say sorry if you took my remarks otherwise. My only purpose was that atleast chinese and other Asian countries products are priced fairly so that high end consumer can benefit.
India is a price concious market and Hi-end audio is still in its infant stage.

If u tell some one that a single interconnect (Nordos Vallahla/Odin cost $3K for 1 metre pair he would laugh at u and not believe.
I know Usher products are very good and give a tough competition to western speakers costing much higher.
I agree that import cost,overheads etc. are high for generally SMALLER SALES VOLUMES of high end products compared to mass market products like Sony, Sharp, Panasonic etc.

BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS AND LOWER SALES VOLUMES:--

Just see the way west is pricing their products. There was a time one could buy a reference level product for $1K or 2K, But now see turntables are priced at $15K to $100K, Amplifiers 10K to 100K and so on. You can buy a CAR OR HOME FOR THIS AMOUNT.
I will give you one example from my personal experience.
I was looking for a speaker and took price from the manufacturer in UK since there was no dealer in my country. I also send mails to few dealers of other neighbouring countries and one in UK. And I was correct in doing so because there was no importer in my country.
The manufcturer quoted me list price and I had to pay shipping,import duty,vat clearing etc.etc. So a product costing $ 4K in US/UK would cost me $6K here without facilities of Demo and after sales service. Prices from dealers were cheaper. The UK dealer referred my mail to the manufacturer and he wrote a nasty mail to me. I also replied to him very strongly saying that since there was no importer in my country I had every right to take quotes from other dealers. And if he did not like my face he should just stop writing mails to me. I can't force him to sell nor could he force me to buy or stop writing to his dealers. I still have his mails in my E'mail ID.
SO WITHOUT GIVING ANY KIND OF SERVICE,DEMO,CUSTOMS CLEARANCE ETC. HE WANTED FULL VALUE FROM ME TAKING FULL BENEFITS OF A IMPORTER AS WELL AS A MANUFACTURER. A free lunch on my account.
This is a class A rated stereophile speaker.

On the otherhand I took QUOTE FROM A SPEAKER MANUFACTURER OF ANOTHER BRAND FROM USA ( also stereophile class A recommended). He also did not have an importer here.
HE REALISED MY DIFFICUTIES IN ABSENCE OF AN IMPORTER AND STRAIGHT AWAY OFFERED 35% AND FINALLY AGREED FOR 40% or 45% DISCOUNT.
So you can judge who is more customer friendly and wants to help audiophile community in general.

Listening to good sound/music is heavely experience soul touching but sadly most manufacturers do not realise this and want to kill this great hobby. A speaker or T/T manufacturer selling one unit for $100K is happy if he can sell 10 to 20 units in one year and make good profits. But he is driving the entire market to raise prices. NOW IT HAS BECOME A FASHION TO PRICE PRODUCTS IN THE RANGE OF $10K AND ABOVE or may be 25K and above.
It may be OK for the WEST or EUROPE or JAPAN , but we asians will never be able to enjoy the maximum potential of this wonderful art.

I WILL BE REALLY HAPPY TO SEE MORE AND MORE CHINESE AND INDIAN AND OTHER ASIAN PODUCTS COMING UP IN NEAR FUTURE TO REALLY CHALLENGE WEST.Quality of chinese manufacturing has improved a lot. QUAD speaker is the best example. Although designed in UK the chinese workmanship is exceptional.
Hope importers like you and few others will help growth of highend audio in India in coming times.
Warm regards
SKR

 

[square_wave]

Hi SKR,
This is the reality with all types of business. More the advt, hype, more the cost.
You have the hyped up ?? style statement products, underground products which will give you same or better performance and small niche manufacturers who give you great VFM and perfomance etc?
There is no ??one size fits all? solution here. It is for you decide. If good sound is your aim, there are different paths which can lead you there. You do not have to buy a style statement-hyped up product which has a Class A rating from some Rag ,
I personally know some great setups which sound ethereal but consist of mostly underground gear which most people are not even aware of.
Do not succumb to the hype. Keep an open mind and explore and you will find some gems at great prices.

 

[particleman]

I have raised this point on another forum but another HUGE problem in India is not just the prices but the lack of financing. If you can take home a 1-lakh rupee amp knowing that you can pay for it over 12 months then a LOT more people would opt for it. Just like your plasma and lcd television sets. But how many audio dealers in India bother to offer financing? Only Soundsmiths as far as I know (only for certain banks but at least they're trying). I've asked many dealers this and all you get is a laugh or a sneer.

 

[odyssey]

Hi SKR
Please...no apologies needed. Its just that I have been down the path of a consumer and now a dealer that I know the pain from both sides and am trying to really find a way to get that balance, with some products this works, with some it doesnt. With Usher, its just that I thought we found that balance and was just a bit disheartened to see your email saying this is also way expensive, frankly there isnt much more one can do.
Dont forget that a good dealer has to provide good service, otherwise there isnt much difference between the numerous grey markets and dealers. Sadly, service costs money too.
Square_wave is right that we all fall into the hype, there are a lot of products that are top notch which reviewers will not touch, some of these come from small shops. I would love to get some of these to India, but I also know that these shops will have a harder time providing the service that is needed. Most reviewers did not also touch chinese products in the past, that has now somewhat changed. They were under pressure from American companies who advertize heavily to not take in Asian products.
Frankly of all the high end magazines, Stereophile is the worst...
cheers

 

[particleman]

Odyssey, agreed - I have thrown away Stereophile and have really liked the few issues of the British Hi-Fi World I have read. Very sensible magazine with good mix of reviews of affordable and high-end gear. By the way, they had only good things to say about Usher S-520.

 

[SKR]

Hi Odyssey,
You have chosen a good product which gives good value to customer. I hope you have a few more like this.
As you have been a customer yourself, you know(most times) it is impossible to listen to equipment of your choice and than decide. Most dealers don't carry stocks and no DEMO.
Some dealer will only order an import after a customer confirms an order. So there is no chance for a customer to satisfy himself. Specially for high value items.
Many products which you THINK OR PRESUME TO BE GOOD BASED ON YOUR RESEARCH are not available in your country.

SO HOW DOES A CUSTOMER MAKE A BUYING DECISION. HE HAS TO BASE HIS DECISION ON REVIEWS FROM VARIOUS MAGAZINES AND WEB SITES SOME OF THEM NOT SO RELIABLE.

But this entire hobby is very SUBJECTIVE.
YOU DO NOT LIKE STEREOPHILE BUT I REALLY APPRECIATE IT. I subscribe to both TAS and Stereophile and enjoy reading both.
Just imagine a scernario without these magazines. I am sure High-end audio would not have grown so much. These 2 magazines good or bad have contributed a lot to growth of high end audio.

Main thing is consumer confidence. If you or I say this Amp. is good no body will believe .But if same thing is appreciated by TAS or Stereophile or a big website, people will accept it. That is how it works. And thats how COST OF PRODUCTS ARE DECIDED AND ADVERTISEMENTS GIVEN TO THESE MAGAZINES AND WEBSITES.

 

[square_wave]

Reading magazines to enjoy them and basing your buying decisions based on what they recommend are two different things.
Almost all rags recommend the brands that advertise with them. There are big time lobbies in audio that make sure certain brands are the ones the big reviewers recommend.
Even if you buy the A list components recommended by a mag, there is no guarantee that you will get good sound. Great sound may turn out to be more than the sum of all the parts. The problem, of course, was that you actually believed that the magazines were giving you honest, well informed advice, not marketing the wares of their advertisers.