Vinyl vs Digital?

[ajuvignesh]

loudness war is primarily about the DR. its not about the format but about the target listener as I explained earlier.


I am not surei understood what you are intending to say here
Loudness war is about compression .its when the highest amplitudes and reduced and lowest are pumped up so the DR is reduced. due to this the recording can be made at a higher level of course it can be transferred even if compressed since the DR is low . may be at a lower gain but since you have an amp to pump it up it should not matter.

If you take CDs by Decca or chesky they retain the DR and they really sound good. but the vinyls are no slouch either but if you already have one you dont need the other,

This is what AI's reply to the query.

"No, the same level of compression used for CDs generally
cannot be set to vinyl records due to the physical and technical limitations of the vinyl format.
CDs have a much wider potential dynamic range (the difference between the quietest and loudest sounds) and can handle the "hyper-compressed" sound often found in modern recordings, a result of the "loudness war" in mastering. Vinyl, being an analog and mechanical medium, has significant physical limitations that require different mastering techniques to ensure the record is playable on a variety of turntables without skipping or distortion.

A heavily compressed signal with high, consistent volume levels would require deep and wide grooves on a vinyl record. This can cause the stylus to jump grooves (skipping) or the grooves to cut into one another.

The main reason a vinyl version of an album might sound "better" to some listeners is often that it was mastered with less compression (more dynamic range) by choice, as engineers tailor the audio specifically to the medium's capabilities and perceived audiophile preferences.

Attempting to put the exact same, highly compressed CD master onto vinyl would likely result in an unplayable or very poor-sounding record."

 

[arj]

This is what AI's reply to the query.

"No, the same level of compression used for CDs generally
cannot be set to vinyl records due to the physical and technical limitations of the vinyl format.
CDs have a much wider potential dynamic range (the difference between the quietest and loudest sounds) and can handle the "hyper-compressed" sound often found in modern recordings, a result of the "loudness war" in mastering. Vinyl, being an analog and mechanical medium, has significant physical limitations that require different mastering techniques to ensure the record is playable on a variety of turntables without skipping or distortion.

A heavily compressed signal with high, consistent volume levels would require deep and wide grooves on a vinyl record. This can cause the stylus to jump grooves (skipping) or the grooves to cut into one another.

The main reason a vinyl version of an album might sound "better" to some listeners is often that it was mastered with less compression (more dynamic range) by choice, as engineers tailor the audio specifically to the medium's capabilities and perceived audiophile preferences.

Attempting to put the exact same, highly compressed CD master onto vinyl would likely result in an unplayable or very poor-sounding record."

The CD master has to be converted to a vinyl master anyway via equalization as is any other master if done specifically for vinyl

AI can be AI-AI Yo if not controlled . it always tries to please the person who asked the question.

Try using the following Prompt
Assume You are a seasoned mastering engineer who's worked with both CD and vinyl for 15 years .
Situation: I have a CD master that's already compressed and I need to cut it to vinyl. I will get this Eq'd for Vinyl . I am willing to live with any of the compromises due to this.
Can you tell me if this is possible ?


In your AI response the following is the Key

The main reason a vinyl version of an album might sound "better" to some listeners is often that it was mastered with less compression (more dynamic range) by choice, as engineers tailor the audio specifically to the medium's capabilities and perceived audiophile preferences.

This is the reason, to the OG question of why Vinyls sound better. it is not the medium but the mastering and the subsequent mastering /Eq of a CD master to make ma vinyl master only dumbs it down further but can be same or worse depending on the mastering engineers skill
If it even sounds better, its probably because the TT-Cart-Phono is doing a better job than the cdp.

..and also because they see that folks using vinyls have a higher expectation from the vinyl

 

[ajuvignesh]

Try using the following Prompt
Assume You are a seasoned mastering engineer who's worked with both CD and vinyl for 15 years .
Situation: I have a CD master that's already compressed and I need to cut it to vinyl. I will get this Eq'd for Vinyl . I am willing to live with any of the compromises due to this.
Can you tell me if this is possible ?

There is no reason the highly compressed cd master cannot be cut into vinyl. when played back, it will be distorted, in worst case, there will be needle skipping. I will not listen to that.

In one of the videos of PS audio, Paul clearly mentioned that expanders have to be used to lift some of the compression to safely transfer the digital master with high compression to a vinyl. And hence, vinyl master has a life to it.

I modified the prompt slightly as below.

consider yourself as a mastering engineer with 15 years of experience. Do you think a highly compressed cd can be transferred to a vinyl with the same compression?

The answer is,

No. A highly compressed CD master cannot be transferred to vinyl with the same compression without causing major issues. Vinyl physically cannot handle the same loudness, limiting, and clipping that a “loudness war” CD master contains.

Why the same compression cannot be used on vinyl​

1. Vinyl has strict physical limits

A vinyl cutter head cannot cut extremely hot, brick-walled audio.

If you try, you’ll run into:

• Groove distortion
• Inner-groove distortion
• Skipping
• Overheated cutter head
• Sibilance and high-frequency breakup

What sounds “loud but acceptable” on a CD can be un-cuttable on vinyl.

---

2. CD masters rely on brickwall limiting

CD masters often use:

• Heavy bus compression
• 5–10 dB of brickwall limiting
• Peaks shaved to near-zero dynamic range

Vinyl needs transient space to move the stylus. If everything is squashed, the stylus can’t track the groove cleanly.

3. Vinyl mastering requires different EQ and dynamics​

A vinyl pre-master usually gets:

• Less limiting (often none at all)
• Lower RMS loudness (e.g., –16 to –20 LUFS, compared to –8 to –6 on CDs)
• Controlled low end (mono below ~120 Hz)
• Tamed sibilance
• Gentler high frequencies

In other words: vinyl needs headroom.

4. Many pressing plants reject loud digital CD masters

A plant or cutting engineer will often request:

“Please send the uncompressed version, not the CD master.”

Because they know they cannot cut a hyper-compressed master safely.

So how is modern loud music still released on vinyl?

Because engineers create a separate vinyl master, even if the marketing claims “same master as digital.”

This alternate vinyl pre-master:

• Keeps EQ/tonality close
• Keeps dynamics usable on vinyl
• Avoids destructive limiting
• Reduces sub-bass energy

This gives the illusion of the same master, but technically it’s not.

Bottom line

A highly compressed CD master should not be directly transferred to vinyl.

A vinyl version must be re-mastered or at least modified to meet the format’s mechanical limits.

If someone insists on cutting the CD master, the vinyl will:

• Sound worse
• Distort
• Possibly skip
• Be rejected by the cutting engineer

So, no — vinyl cannot reproduce the same level of compression that a CD can handle.

 

[reubensm]

I have another twist to the debate and a factor which is also fiercely debated during Vinyl vs Digital debates, which is the genre of music one listens to. I have personally preferred Digital for listening to my heavy metal and hard rock collection. Vinyl just sounds too warm and lazy and lacks delivering the important thrills expected from the listening experience, by fans of these genres - speed, low frequency presence, loudness and fury. But I use Vinyl to listen to classic rock like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Blue Cheer, Steppenwolf, Uriah Heep, Queen, etc as the expectations that I have from the sound signature, are different

 

[arj]

As i said new vinyls are not good enough. I guess this point is clear ?

I know whats done with the new vinyls and I can clearly hear it as can so many others so really dont want to get on a on "your AI vs Mine" where answers change depending on the prompt and which LLM you use.

 

[ajuvignesh]

As i said new vinyls are not good enough. I guess this point is clear ?

I know whats done with the new vinyls and I can clearly hear it as can so many others so really dont want to get on a on "your AI vs Mine" where answers change depending on the prompt and which LLM you use.

I am not telling whether the new vinyl is good or not. Thats simply based on the recording, mixing and mastering.
The point is the same compressed song that is mastered specifically for loudness war cannot be transferred to a vinyl as it is without distortion and other artefacts. The dynamic range has to be expanded. As an audio engineer I tried my best to explain you why it is not done in the industry. Its up to you to take it or leave it.

Ai cannot spit everything by itself. It will get the data already on the internet anyway.
I rest my case here.

 

[arj]

The point is the same compressed song that is mastered specifically for loudness war cannot be transferred to a vinyl as it is without distortion and other artefacts. The dynamic range has to be expanded. As an audio engineer I tried my best to explain you why it is not done in the industry. Its up to you to take it or leave it.

I did not know this is I always as I always assumed EQ for mastering includes DR expansion as well. So I stand corrected. BTW if you had mentioned you are an Audio engineer I would have asked you more ( note to myslef !)

In that case the newer vinyls are not really from the cd Master but from another master which was used to make CDs with DR and also vinyls which were wrongly mastered ?

 

[arj]

Spoke to someone who is from the industry. this has 3 different situations. putting it in since there ahs been a discussion on this.

1. New music where the Masters are available. The Studio gives a Master to music group to master. For CDs it is compressed as per their expectations of their target market where they create a CD master. they create a different LP master for vinyl with its EQ etc.
In these cases , if done by a labels like SONy etc who have good ,mastering engineers, the Vinyls is better

2. New Music: Here the studio master is not available to the label. This is for the small time labels where new music gets messed up since the labels do not have access to the studio master and have to look for alternate sources and they only get access to some degraded "master" OR the cd itself from which the EQ, expand Dr etc . hence not a good LP

3 Old music . For indian music Masters are not available and they usually take UK CDs which are very well pressed and use that CD for mastering.
Anyone has any other perspective ?

 

[arj]

Another Link, its interesting that it deebunks the theory that Vinyl has better DR than CD if made from the same master

Most vinyl releases skip separate mastering entirely, as they’re cut directly from the same compressed digital masters made for streaming or CDs.

and if you click the link above

Today, many vinyl releases, including reissues and brand-new albums, skip this step. Instead, they’re cut directly from the same compressed digital masters made for streaming or CDs.

 

[morerajendra5678]

Well if you can get your music on Vinyl, its still worthwhile getting but choose carefully in what you want . eg Western classical and Jazz the difference is very low.
Music till 70s and even some on 80s Vinyl is better. but for alter CD is better. even with CDs , in many case the older pressings.

Discogs does not ship to india but if you have an address there and and option someone can bring it here. you can still get some records there.

50-100 records is actually more than enough..many hoarders like me may have gone seriously overboard though

I do find it hard to comprehend the Lyrics in english songs and hence prefer listening to hindi songs and regional indian stuff. Given the outrageous pricing of old vinyls available in India, would you advise me to start the vinyl journey. As such I am not hard pressed for funds but the more important question is about vinyl availability and whether the currently available vinyl records can sustain atleast 30 years of usage from now?

 

[reubensm]

There is another theory, a digital source when mastered on vinyl or recorded on reel tape, and played back on vinyl or a good tape machine, may sound more listenable than the original digital source, played back as a file or on CD. I found this example wherein youtube music was cut on a master and played back on a turntable (of course nobody can get masters for playback but still, it illustrates a good point).

 

[arj]

I do find it hard to comprehend the Lyrics in english songs and hence prefer listening to hindi songs and regional indian stuff. Given the outrageous pricing of old vinyls available in India, would you advise me to start the vinyl journey. As such I am not hard pressed for funds but the more important question is about vinyl availability and whether the currently available vinyl records can sustain atleast 30 years of usage from now?

There are several new pressings which are good. the cost of Vinyls is high but vinyls , if handled well can last for a really long time. so many of my records are pressed in the 70s and still in excellent condition.
If you have folks in the US an europe you can get records in good condition based on your budget for most music. Some like Ijaazat etc turn out to be too expensive but most are reasonable in the 2-3K region.

For new, most pressings by Blisstainment and especially Sony are good in general..avoid private labels and Saregama whose digital also generally suck except for newer music.. you can check this site

 

[morerajendra5678]

There are several new pressings which are good. the cost of Vinyls is high but vinyls , if handled well can last for a really long time. so many of my records are pressed in the 70s and still in excellent condition.
If you have folks in the US an europe you can get records in good condition based on your budget for most music. Some like Ijaazat etc turn out to be too expensive but most are reasonable in the 2-3K region.

For new, most pressings by Blisstainment and especially Sony are good in general..avoid private labels and Saregama whose digital also generally suck except for newer music.. you can check this site

Thanks for your advice and guidance. I have taken my part of plunge in Vinyl. Today I was lucky to secure 50 LPs of some renowned singers and have made bookings for another 50 LPs.
For turntable I have choosen EBI Audio Hansdhwani, Carbon tonearm they offer and EBI khumar cartridge. It will be a while before they are delivered to me as they will start building them soon as each turntable is built to order only. Anyways I am in no hurry as I need this time for collecting more LPs.
I choose to go with EBI Audio as my 3 year twins have already inflicted damage to my tube amplifier and I am sceptical about tonearm or cartridge meeting same faith and in such scenario I have been assured that it can be repaired.
Only thing left will be phono preamplifier. I was advised to go with Vida but I will like to have an opinion on a good phono preamplifier.

 

[arj]

Vida is good so is the Ear Phonobox/834 or Vertere. it will depend on the rest of your equipment and how/what you listen

Please keep the TT pretty high up ideally on a wall mounted shelf...cartridge damage hurts the heart like anything.

 

[morerajendra5678]

Vida is good so is the Ear Phonobox/834 or Vertere. it will depend on the rest of your equipment and how/what you listen

Please keep the TT pretty high up ideally on a wall mounted shelf...cartridge damage hurts the heart like anything.

Can you let me know from where Vertere can be purchased in India? Contact number will be really helpful

 

[arj]

I think Manav in the forum used to deal with it..below is his website

VERTERE

VividHifi is a high-end luxury audio & visual store online with 1000+ products like - Home Theater, Amplifiers, Projectors, Subwoofers, AV Receivers, Speakers.

www.vividhifi.com

 

[Sean de Silva]

8 Reasons Why Vinyl Still Outsells CDs Even With Lower Specs and Higher Prices, According to Audiophiles

Many buyers admitted reasons they never say out loud when defending their format of choice.

www.headphonesty.com