What is the secret of these speakers?

I am a newbie to this forum but an oldie to Hi-Fi world.

In the 80s, I used to go to a tea shop to listen to my favourite music. Two boxy speakers were placed on a plywood sheet on a wooden pole. They had no tweeters. I assume they had only a 12” FR drivers. They were facing noisy road. That was the transition period from TT to cassette. I have heard them in both.

Even i wondered 1990's BPL Sanyo music systems and Dynora sets(those time it was quite popular) were sounding very good with casette playback. With clean sound & nice highs . May be quality of the source also matters.
They have very simple interface for Equalizer curves ... Sadly Now a days very hard to find such music players with that kind of Equalizer.

I think Sourcing is the matter here. Now a days everything become digitized & sources are compressed ..one or other way its loosing the original quality. Cassettes are used to have raw format with original recordings.
 
So though it is nice to talk about speaker disappearance etc. technically it is not correct, our ears are not attuned to it. Ears like sound that is in phase which means the speakers are there...and not 'NOT THERE'.

Yep, usually out of phase drivers give a sense of a wide soundstage where the speakers will be literally invisible. But accustomed 'ears' usually can find out the quality of sound (the lack of it).
Speakers existence should be definitely felt by ears so that they could clearly distinguish between far left, left, left center - Dead Center - ........
Also there is a certain height of imaging that is quite desirable and this is usually completely missed out, if one is hearing a sound stage with completely invisible speakers .

to be OP:
I am just guessing, but with my little experience..., usually most traditional Indian instruments sound so very good in 'tea shop' speakers. Unlike western instruments like Guitar, Synths, Piano, Classic Drum kits, our own Veena, Nathaswaram, Mirudangam, Flute has a very different tone to it. It is hard to explain, but their tone is very forgiving that you dont need a technically sophisticated setup to enjoy them. They sound very organic and any speaker with ability to do wide band with some good reserves of power can move a lot of people.

Looking at your handle, i assume you are a Illayaraja fan, and let me admit it, in many of my own setups i have heard and tuned (in car and home) this Raja's music doesn't need any resolving setup to enjoy. In fact they sound the 'Best' when heard in technically average, run-of-mill, commercial grade speakers. I am not sure of it is do with the usage of instruments or the way it was recorded or the way the orchestration is being used !
On contrary Rahman's or any other music directors album need good investments in music system to fully unveil the magic hidden in their songs.

just my 2 cents!
 
out of phase wiring dont really give you a soundstage. they just make seem that sound is coming from everywhere including inside our head !
 
Looking at your handle, i assume you are a Illayaraja fan, and let me admit it, in many of my own setups i have heard and tuned (in car and home) this Raja's music doesn't need any resolving setup to enjoy. In fact they sound the 'Best' when heard in technically average, run-of-mill, commercial grade speakers. I am not sure of it is do with the usage of instruments or the way it was recorded or the way the orchestration is being used !
On contrary Rahman's or any other music directors album need good investments in music system to fully unveil the magic hidden in their songs.

just my 2 cents!

Rightly said...
 
What is your budget for speakers?

My speakers are multidrivers but the sound comes from a point source.
 
My first hi-fi setup in the 90s with technologically advanced TV(!!).
No Mobile, No Internet, No Plasma !!!
I have progressed from B&W in the 90s to IBall in 2018. What a journey..:):)

That's what I am saying; to look for 12 inch or the F.A.S.T. (Intex type) commercial speakers. That way you have good chance of getting same sound signature. I forgot some commercial speakers do have F.A.S.T. types of 2 way speakers Will search and Post. However buying without listening will be dicey affair. So other option will be to visit forum members who have such speaker/s. As for 3inch + SW, We had such speakers (Pioneer) in early 80s. And I swear they sounded good. It only had a resistor and capacitor as crossover and all the people/friends who listened to it at my home liked them. So there is something special about single 12 inch OR 3inch+SW combination.
Best Regards.
The sound from a 12” FR purely depends on the enclosure. I have listened to few 12” FRs and found them lacking in the lows. They are unable to produce the bottom most layer. But the tea shop one is also a 12” but could do the wonders.

You mentioned about some F.A.S.T commercial speakers. Where are they available? Could you please direct me to some source?

Even i wondered 1990's BPL Sanyo music systems and Dynora sets(those time it was quite popular) were sounding very good with casette playback. With clean sound & nice highs . May be quality of the source also matters.
They have very simple interface for Equalizer curves ... Sadly Now a days very hard to find such music players with that kind of Equalizer.

I think Sourcing is the matter here. Now a days everything become digitized & sources are compressed ..one or other way its loosing the original quality. Cassettes are used to have raw format with original recordings.
The originals were in cassettes. Now I have them in digital. Most, if not all, have good sound quality comparable to originals. Not to worry about this part.
 
to be OP:
I am just guessing, but with my little experience..., usually most traditional Indian instruments sound so very good in 'tea shop' speakers. Unlike western instruments like Guitar, Synths, Piano, Classic Drum kits, our own Veena, Nathaswaram, Mirudangam, Flute has a very different tone to it. It is hard to explain, but their tone is very forgiving that you dont need a technically sophisticated setup to enjoy them. They sound very organic and any speaker with ability to do wide band with some good reserves of power can move a lot of people.
You nailed it. Your words echo my mind.:)

Looking at your handle, i assume you are a Illayaraja fan, and let me admit it, in many of my own setups i have heard and tuned (in car and home) this Raja's music doesn't need any resolving setup to enjoy. In fact they sound the 'Best' when heard in technically average, run-of-mill, commercial grade speakers. I am not sure of it is do with the usage of instruments or the way it was recorded or the way the orchestration is being used !
Yes. I am a huge fan of Raja and talking about his music only. Where to get those commercial grade speakers? Can you please guide me to some source?

On contrary Rahman's or any other music directors album need good investments in music system to fully unveil the magic hidden in their songs.
1/3rd of Raja’s are western. Please listen to Anjali released in 1990. It was recorded 28 years ago. Compare it with today’s music. You will be surprised.

Out of my experience, I have come to the following conclusions.
  • There are no western instruments that sound similar to our Tabla, Mridhangam or Melam
  • Speakers and drivers are manufactured and tuned for western music and instruments
  • These drivers either overpower or lack power in 70 to 200hz
  • With western speakers flooding the market, speakers suitable for Indian music disappeared
  • Nothing is inferior or superior when it comes to music. Select one that suits your taste and needs
Now, I have decided to experiment a pair of FR with a Sub to fill the bottom. My instinct says a pair of 4” FR and an 8” SW will do the trick in my 12x12 bedroom. But I have no idea how I am going to achieve this since FRs are not readymade.

Please let me know where to buy
  1. Readymade 4” FRs and a compact 8” SW
  2. An external 2 channel active crossover with both LPF and HPF for each channel to fine tune the speakers to my room.

Or please suggest alternatives.

I am not ashamed to use IBall, Intex or Ahuja as long as I can enjoy my music. All I need is the following:-

Sound signature of IBall
Good clarity
Good stereo and instrument separation
Moderate sound stage
Power to slam when I desire
Good dynamics at low volume
 
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Now, I have decided to experiment a pair of FR with a Sub to fill the bottom. My instinct says a pair of 4” FR and an 8” SW will do the trick in my 12x12 bedroom. But I have no idea how I am going to achieve this since FRs are not readymade.

Please let me know where to buy
  1. Readymade 4” FRs and a compact 8” SW
  2. An external 2 channel active crossover with both LPF and HPF for each channel to fine tune the speakers to my room
I use Dayton RS 100 , 4 inch FR paired with MJ Acoustics subwoofer (8”). Powered by Norge 1000 Gold amp (80 watts at 8 ohm, I believe). 90% I listen to Ilayaraja songs and I am extremely happy with the quality. I’ve listened to some mid range 2 way bookshelf speakers from reputed bands but my current setup makes me happy. My source is RPI + Allo Boss DAC or Akai MX 10 tape ( yes I listen tapes and I own 500+ tapes)

I rarely listen to western songs so cant comment how my system performs but for Ilayaraja and A R Rahman (90’s songs & till 2010), this FR+sub combo is excellent.

My room is almost same 12x12 and I recommend sealed sub for music purpose. I also own 12” FR floorstanders + dual 12” sub (DIY) in living room but for critical listening I prefer my 4”+ 8” sub setup...
 
I use Dayton RS 100 , 4 inch FR paired with MJ Acoustics subwoofer (8”). Powered by Norge 1000 Gold amp (80 watts at 8 ohm, I believe). 90% I listen to Ilayaraja songs and I am extremely happy with the quality. I’ve listened to some mid range 2 way bookshelf speakers from reputed bands but my current setup makes me happy. My source is RPI + Allo Boss DAC or Akai MX 10 tape ( yes I listen tapes and I own 500+ tapes)

I rarely listen to western songs so cant comment how my system performs but for Ilayaraja and A R Rahman (90’s songs & till 2010), this FR+sub combo is excellent.
OMG !!. You have traveled the same path I want to. We have similar tastes. You are using 4" FR and 8" SW. What a coincidence.. I would like to meet you. Sent you a PM.
 
Secret is inexperience then, secret is novelty, secret is nostalgia.

When I was a kid I thought the small playground near my home was massive and I held that impression for long, until I saw how tiny it was to my grown-up eyes. I thought the old hindi horror series "aahat" was something special until I revisited it with my experience (of watching lot of horror movies).

Novel early experiences are always special in our memory :)
 
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Now, I have decided to experiment a pair of FR with a Sub to fill the bottom. My instinct says a pair of 4” FR and an 8” SW will do the trick in my 12x12 bedroom. But I have no idea how I am going to achieve this since FRs are not readymade.

I think I'm also following the similar path and came up with a temporary OB solution.

Though my music preferences are different from yours (I believe), I'm loving the sound.

The drivers are Markaudio 7.3 (4" FR) and Dayton Audio 6.5" sub

IMG_20181117_154328_Bokeh-2176x1632.jpg
 
Yes. I am a huge fan of Raja and talking about his music only. Where to get those commercial grade speakers? Can you please guide me to some source?

As an ardent fan of Illayaraja, i chose my speakers based on audition of few Fav Raja tracks ! Although i had to up my budget by quite a stretch, i was very conscious of my decision. I auditioned quite a few popular brands, KEF, Emotiva, SVS, Revel, NHT, Wharfdale, Polk and found that although reviews all over talk about warm, laidback, detailed, rich...i wasn't totally moved by any of it. I finally ended up with a literally unknown brand because i felt it gave me feeling of being very close to Raja sir's music

1/3rd of Raja’s are western. Please listen to Anjali released in 1990. It was recorded 28 years ago. Compare it with today’s music. You will be surprised.

I am not talking about the genre of music, i am talking about the way his recording work! Raja's work are masterpieces caught up in world of monophonic recording ! the Stereo track that came post late 80's are till date some of the best recordings in Indian music.

less said about today's music the better. I stopped my Music clock at 2002. I only go back and Back, in search for purity in music.


Out of my experience, I have come to the following conclusions.
  • These drivers either overpower or lack power in 70 to 200hz

Speakers do not lack power or overpower, they only respond to power. You could try looking at response graph to see if there are dips that make you feel there is dearth of audio. But honestly i don't think this is to do with linearity of speakers or Power needed by them.

The Tone of a speaker is one of the most intrinsic and unique aspect about it. Tone is subjective will even appear slightly different to each of our own ears too ! More than rated power, more than resonant freq of the driver, more than the range, more than the crossover networks used, i value this tone a lot more. Because the rest of things can be managed to an extent with different amplifier or adding or subtracting additional drivers, or totally bypassing them for an active network and DSP, but the TONE of a speaker essentially cannot be changed ! Another reason why an audition is a much better way to buy speakers than specs or internet reviews !


Or please suggest alternatives.

Did you try Torvin ?
 
Secret is inexperience then, secret is novelty, secret is nostalgia.

When I was a kid I thought the small playground near my home was massive and I held that impression for long, until I saw how tiny it was to my grown-up eyes. I thought the old hindi horror series "aahat" was something special until I revisited it with my experience (of watching lot of horror movies).

Novel early experiences are always special in our memory :)

Edit: Read your post again. You found what you are looking for? So I guess it is real and more than what I thought it could be :)
Nostalgia brings priceless happiness. Do you have any suggestions to bring back my musical nostalgia? :)

I think I'm also following the similar path and came up with a temporary OB solution.

Though my music preferences are different from yours (I believe), I'm loving the sound.

The drivers are Markaudio 7.3 (4" FR) and Dayton Audio 6.5" sub

View attachment 31926
Cool. How does it sound? Does this OB with SW produce that punchy and slamming mid bass?
 
Cool. How does it sound? Does this OB with SW produce that punchy and slamming mid bass?

The baffle is made out 12mm scrap plywood and when 3 drivers are in action together it resonates like hell. This is just temporary arrangement. For bass, 6.5" is a bit compromise in my opinion. For thumping bass I think at least a 10" driver would be required. Alpairs are well known for the mids and highs (typical FR characteristics). I'm loving the sound signature already.

Mids are just sweet.

I'm planning to build a boom box type 2.1 portable system with these drivers.
 
As an ardent fan of Illayaraja, i chose my speakers based on audition of few Fav Raja tracks ! Although i had to up my budget by quite a stretch, i was very conscious of my decision. I auditioned quite a few popular brands, KEF, Emotiva, SVS, Revel, NHT, Wharfdale, Polk and found that although reviews all over talk about warm, laidback, detailed, rich...i wasn't totally moved by any of it. I finally ended up with a literally unknown brand because i felt it gave me feeling of being very close to Raja sir's music

I know you bought Xavian. After reading your post about AV Lounge and Xavian, I wanted to visit them. But I am exhausted auditioning for that elusive speakers. Almost I have lost my confidence in branded ones for various reasons I stated. But your message infuses confidence again. Will you allow me an audition of your setup at your home so that I can make some informed choices?

I am not talking about the genre of music, i am talking about the way his recording work! Raja's work are masterpieces caught up in world of monophonic recording ! the Stereo track that came post late 80's are till date some of the best recordings in Indian music.

Well said. 100% agree.

less said about today's music the better. I stopped my Music clock at 2002. I only go back and Back, in search for purity in music.
:):):) Precise connect with you.


Did you try Torvin ?
Thought of but exhausted.
 
Out of my experience, I have come to the following conclusions.
  • There are no western instruments that sound similar to our Tabla, Mridhangam or Melam
  • Speakers and drivers are manufactured and tuned for western music and instruments
  • These drivers either overpower or lack power in 70 to 200hz
  • With western speakers flooding the market, speakers suitable for Indian music disappeared

I am sorry, but i am not able to understand the above. Arent all drums basically the same ie a stretched material, usually hide over a shell of wood and just that the shape and usage changes . So not sure why reproduction of a western drum is different from an india one.

As far as i know, Most drivers are designed scientifically to be flat and not specific for any instruments and hence not sure as to why they would want to make it all weird in the 70-200 Hz which is a very crucial range for mid bass/bass. A Speaker is of course a different matter

From what I know, Illayaraja himself is involved in the mastering of his songs and most studios do use "Western" studios.. eg Angel labs he has used in the UK uses ATC speakers. Not sure what studio he uses in chennai, but in most probability it would be a pro audio
 
I dont uderstand why people use SW?If my normal speakers cover all the frequencies I think there is no need of using a sub.My system is a two way and covers 35hz to 20khz.
 
I am sorry, but i am not able to understand the above. Arent all drums basically the same ie a stretched material, usually hide over a shell of wood and just that the shape and usage changes . So not sure why reproduction of a western drum is different from an india one.
True. I too had this question but found the answer. They all are stretched on a wooden piece. But the tone, texture, composition of bass from a mridhangam, tabla and melam is totally different from a drum. Even the skin used for a mridhangam and melam is different. As per your theory, a drum and a tabla should sound exactly similar. Are they?:)

As far as i know, Most drivers are designed scientifically to be flat and not specific for any instruments and hence not sure as to why they would want to make it all weird in the 70-200 Hz which is a very crucial range for mid bass/bass. A Speaker is of course a different matter
If most drivers can produce all frequencies efficiently, what is the need to invent specialized tweeters, mid range, mid bass and SW to effectively produce a particular range? Can a SW driver be used for high freq? SW drivers that go down to 20hz +/-3db will make 200 hz vanish in thin air at equal volume. Do you think all the 12" SW drivers produce the same sound? Different drivers are tuned for different freq range. Similarly, I believe out of my limited experience that these drivers are tuned for effective reproduction of the sounds from western instruments. I may be wrong too.

From what I know, Illayaraja himself is involved in the mastering of his songs and most studios do use "Western" studios.. eg Angel labs he has used in the UK uses ATC speakers. Not sure what studio he uses in chennai, but in most probability it would be a pro audio

Correct. You have already mentioned that they are professional recording studios that costs tons of money. We can't create such environment at homes. Studios use professional monitors that are designed to produce flat sound. They are clinical in nature to analyze the recordings. They use studio monitors for 'producing' music whereas the consumers use the hifi for 'listening' to music. Setting up studio monitors at home and making it acoustic friendly is a huge task. Ultimately the whole thing may prove a disaster if source quality is poor.
 
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True. I too had this question but found the answer. They all are stretched on a wooden piece. But the tone, texture, composition of bass from a mridhangam, tabla and melam is totally different from a drum. Even the skin used for a mridhangam and melam is different. As per your theory, a drum and a tabla should sound exactly similar. Are they?:)
.
No No thats not at all what I meant, the principle of each of the drum is the same but the tonality is very different because of the shape /material of the enclosure, tension of the hide etc etc..hence every drum sounds very different from the other in terms of the tone and the timbre.But i was not sure how one can make a speaker sounds good for western drums but not for indian as there is no way to differentiate that for a driver ( unless i am missing something ). The timbre and tone is made up of Sub harmonics and overtones over and above the fundamental frequency and its the combination which gives the tone and the texture of each drum. in fact there will be differences in sound even between each tabla depending on the tuning .

so I dont think your theory of indian drivers playing indian drums better is valid.


If most drivers can produce all frequencies efficiently, what is the need to invent specialized tweeters, mid range, mid bass and SW to effectively produce a particular range? Can a SW driver be used for high freq? SW drivers that go down to 20hz +/-3db will make 200 hz vanish in thin air at equal volume. Do you think all the 12" SW drivers produce the same sound? Different drivers are tuned for different freq range. Similarly, I believe out of my limited experience that these drivers are tuned for effective reproduction of the sounds from western instruments. I may be wrong too.

Again not what i meant.. since you had specifically mentioned that the driver behaves differently, that too specifically in the 70-200hz range, please do not bring in Subwoofers and tweeters as they operate much beyond this range and no designer in the right mind would use a driver in range it is not designed for.

From what I do know, for most 2 way speakers (most common), the main bass/midrange driver is used upto maybe 2Khz (varies a lot ) and only after that does the tweeter take over. So the entire 30Hz -1Khz is by one driver.

I sincerely doubt if there is any tuning for only one set of instruments


btw i dont intend here that the indian drivers are not good..just that Driver design is an exact science while speaker design is an art.

I dont uderstand why people use SW?If my normal speakers cover all the frequencies I think there is no need of using a sub.My system is a two way and covers 35hz to 20khz.

hi flute, you'd be surprised at the amount of music present in the 20-30Hz region. if you have not heard it, then you can enjoy the music even without it, but once you hear it, you will really miss it if its not there

My speaker goes down to 29 Hz and i can hear a small bass thread on some tracks.With a full range that becomes essential to the music since its that thread which provides the background continuity to music. I never heard it with my previous bookshelves until i put to subs on to it and after that cannot stand those tracks without the bass !

eg Unplugged by Clapton. Dire straits albums even some vocals which sound like acapella on a usual speaker but with a base undertone on a full range which completely changes the experience.

The sub just tries to do that, But it needs to be a good sub which articulates the notes of the bass and not the thump at a single frequency which only ruins the experience. no sub is preferred for that. The thumb rule for a sub is that you should not hear it when on but miss it when off :)

But again, most indian music do not go that low so for that a 35Hz bottom end is perfectly fine
 
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