1 speaker : : 2 Amps

[suprateep]

but in the given setup of smedhavi, the signature of AVR doesn't come into picture when playing music. It comes only into play when avr is used for movies. Am I missing something?

it actually does if you connect everything to the AVR (like many do) and pass the output to a stereao amp.

Like budget receivers 606 or 1909 whcih do not have preouts. For eg. though i can connect everything to the back of the onkyo 606 and use zone 2 line out (RCA) as output to the aux in (possible hehe) of a preamp with no line ins or to a pre amp in of a pwer amp. the sound signature though will be passed through.

 

[venkatcr]

but in the given setup of smedhavi, the signature of AVR doesn't come into picture when playing music. It comes only into play when avr is used for movies. Am I missing something?

The preamp is the one that adds a signature to the sound. That is why if you go into really high value systems, they separate the pre and power amps into two boxes, provide separate power supply and so on. Many of our members are using a Tube preamp from Lyrita and using a solid state power amp.

The power amp, relatively, is a very simple device that converts a low current to high current needed to drive the speakers.

Cheers

 

[anm]

ok - I thought 606 has pre-outs. My mistake.
BTW, for CD players, do we really need a pre? Or can we connect it directly to power amp?

Read this - Preamplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It says
1. pre-amp amplifies the voltage, while power amp amplifies the current to drive the speakers. Venkat, this is different that what you said in the last post. I am confused!

2. modern days pre-amp merely switches between sources and provides volume control. CD players etc already output at a voltage level that doesn't require pre-amplification!

I wonder if we even need a pre-amp for a simple cd player/ power amp. Now this is a big difference from what I have been hearing all the while. Integrated amp, or a separate amp is needed. However, if I am using only a CD player, it seems I don't need a pre-amp at all! CD player should have volume control.

Some links I found on web

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1239423685

Another wikipedia article

quote

A power amplifier takes the "line-level" audio signal from the preamplifier and drives the loudspeakers; typically the only control on a power amplifier is a gain (level) control (or none at all). Some audiophiles use two monophonic power amplifiers in a 'monoblock' configuration rather than one stereophonic power amplifier. Some use no preamplifier, instead connecting a CD player with a variable output directly to a power amplifier.

unquote

regards

it actually does if you connect everything to the AVR (like many do) and pass the output to a stereao amp.

Like budget receivers 606 or 1909 whcih do not have preouts. For eg. though i can connect everything to the back of the onkyo 606 and use zone 2 line out (RCA) as output to the aux in (possible hehe) of a preamp with no line ins or to a pre amp in of a pwer amp. the sound signature though will be passed through.

 

[bazee]

I have used pre-outs of Denon 2309 to a power amp and i hated the sound signature.

A clean stereo setup needs a proper int amp or pre and power.
No fun using the AVR as pre. Thats why we wanted to know how to connect TWO amps to a speaker : one is AVR and other is INT/POWER AMP.

regards

Quote : I wonder if we even need a pre-amp for a simple cd player/ power amp. Anm.


By the way, never tried connecting a CDP to a power amp. No harm trying it. but remember a true CDP does not have volume control !!
People use a Pre for two reasons :
1) The Pre creates the sound signature. The power amp just amplifies the sound.
2) The Pre acts like a hub for connecting inputs and controlling the output i.e the sound ex- vol control etc.. A power amp itself has almost no controls except a on/off switch.


regards

 

[venkatcr]

1. pre-amp amplifies the voltage, while power amp amplifies the current to drive the speakers. Venkat, this is different that what you said in the last post. I am confused!

My apologies. I used the term loosely and have edited it.

2. modern days pre-amp merely switches between sources and provides volume control. CD players etc already output at a voltage level that doesn't require pre-amplification!

This is not correct. I remember I had explained this before. Sources such as CD Players, TT etc, mostly generate very low voltages measured in micro volts (mV). These are taken by a pre amplifier and enhanced to something close to 2V which becomes the input to a power amplifier.

An integrated amp has a pre and power built in. Even if CD player, for example, outputs say 2 volts, you do need a pre amplifier to to process the audio signal, and control the volume. Power amplifier do not have have any volume control. The volume control in the pre provides small increases in voltages that are converted to high current for driving the speakers.

I wonder if we even need a pre-amp for a simple cd player/ power amp. Now this is a big difference from what I have been hearing all the while. Integrated amp, or a separate amp is needed. However, if I am using only a CD player, it seems I don't need a pre-amp at all! CD player should have volume control.

You cannot operate a system without a pre amp. A power amp has no processing capabilities in terms of decoding audio signals, In addition, they have just a single left and right input. In an integrated amp all this is done internally. If you see a independent power amp, all you will see are two RCA sockets for input and two speaker binding posts.

CD Players do NOT have any volume control. Actually no pure source such as DVD Player, a CD Player or a TT have any volume control.If you come across any unit with volume control, the manufacturer has built in a pre amplifier into the unit.

Cheers

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

I have used pre-outs of Denon 2309 to a power amp and i hated the sound signature.

A clean stereo setup needs a proper int amp or pre and power.
No fun using the AVR as pre. Thats why we wanted to know how to connect TWO amps to a speaker : one is AVR and other is INT/POWER AMP.

regards

Quote : I wonder if we even need a pre-amp for a simple cd player/ power amp. Anm.


By the way, never tried connecting a CDP to a power amp. No harm trying it. but remember a true CDP does not have volume control !!
People use a Pre for two reasons :
1) The Pre creates the sound signature. The power amp just amplifies the sound.
2) The Pre acts like a hub for connecting inputs and controlling the output i.e the sound ex- vol control etc.. A power amp itself has almost no controls except a on/off switch.


regards

Based on my understanding - in Medhavi's setup, the AVR's preamp will only come into play for movies and that, I think is perfectly fine. For music, the speakers are going to be connected directly to the integrated amp and as such the AVR does not come into the picture at all.

 

[anm]

bazee, pls try to understand - no one is saying use pre-out of avr for music. It is being used ONLY for movies (or any other application where AVR is used).

Please read the medhavi's post first, and thevortex's last post.

regards

I have used pre-outs of Denon 2309 to a power amp and i hated the sound signature.

A clean stereo setup needs a proper int amp or pre and power.
No fun using the AVR as pre. Thats why we wanted to know how to connect TWO amps to a speaker : one is AVR and other is INT/POWER AMP.

regards

Quote : I wonder if we even need a pre-amp for a simple cd player/ power amp. Anm.


By the way, never tried connecting a CDP to a power amp. No harm trying it. but remember a true CDP does not have volume control !!
People use a Pre for two reasons :
1) The Pre creates the sound signature. The power amp just amplifies the sound.
2) The Pre acts like a hub for connecting inputs and controlling the output i.e the sound ex- vol control etc.. A power amp itself has almost no controls except a on/off switch.


regards

 

[anm]

What processing of the audio signal, except volume control?

regards

you do need a pre amplifier to to process the audio signal, and control the volume.

 

[bazee]

I presently have only the AVR and power amp and no pre-amp.

SO the option of testing a AUX in is not there.

What Smedhavi is using is a pure stereo setup : CDP + NAD 372 pre=power + spk.

He has given the pre-outs of denon to aux of NAD. He is just powering the front two speakers for movie experience from AVR; correct me if i am wrong.......and yes he has two pres in the chain.


Heck... gotta buy a preamp........more expenses.

 

[Kamal]

To muddy the waters a bit more-
My Oppo 981 does have volume buttons on the remote & as an experiment, I did connect it direct to my power Amp & it works; BUT,
you have no control on the initial volume when powering up or have to go thru the rigmarole of putting the Oppo on first, popping in a disc, reducing the volue thru the - button on the remote to zero/very low level & the putting the power Amp on-complicated & if you firget to do it, you get a blast of sound on powering up!
Another thing, the volume control on the Oppo's remote is in the digital domain & the signal quality suffers if you control the vol thru it; the signal quality is the best at full output from the OPPO.
The Pre Amp(active) takes in the very small voltages of source components e.g CD/DVD , Tuner, Turntable, cassette deck & amplifies the input signal of the selected source component to a level that can adequately drive the power amp- e.g, my pre amp takes inputs of a few millivolts & amplifies it to 0.775 volts output which goes into the power amp.The " processing" that a pre amp does is the boosting/cutting of selected frequencies when you bring in the equalisation circuit .You also have a separate phono input circuit in some Amps to boost the extremely low voltage from ,say, a moving coil cartridge to a level which can provide an adequate input for the Pre Amp do its stuff.
Pre Amps also have things like RIAA equalisation but that would form a subject matter for a separate discussion.
Hope I've confused the issue sufficiently !

 

[anm]

thanks for adding to the confusion, Kamal :lol:
But that high vol issue would be with pre-amp as well? you have turn it down before powering up the system?

 

[bazee]

llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

 

[venkatcr]

thanks for adding to the confusion, Kamal :lol:
But that high vol issue would be with pre-amp as well? you have turn it down before powering up the system?

You are getting confused between different input/output paths of ONE: a two channel system, and TWO: a multichannel system such as an AVR.

Most Oppo and many other DVD Players has a small pre amp built in as they are connected to a TV directly. The manufacturers assume that TVs do not have large amplifiers, and they have a preamp built in for convenience. The Oppo, for example, output 1.0V through it's composite, component, and S-Video connections. This is about 6 times the signal strength it would supply if you use it as a CD player and taken a RCA out to an integrated amp.

When you connect such a DVD Player to the CD input socket of a stereo integrated amp (as instructed by the DVD Player manual), the DVD Player will output only the specified signal strength.

This, though, is not the case in traditional audio equipment such as CD Players, TTs, etc. They have only one output.

Pre amps expect each socket to receive data with predetermined specifications - roughly 2.6mV for a MM Phono Cartridge. 0.15mV for a MC cartridge, 160mV for CDs, Tape and Aux input. The THD and SNR specifications are based upon these as well as impedance and sensitivity figures. If you do not stick to these figures, the preamp will start distorting very quickly.

Mobile players have internal amplification for headphones. These can be used to connect to an external pre/amp combination. When you do this, the best is to keep the internal amplification at a extremely low level. A pre amplifier expects it's input to come in at a particular voltage and gain. If you pump in more it will start distorting very quickly. Try this with an iPod. Using a cable (on the headphone socket), connect the iPOD to an integrated amp or you car stereo. Keep the volume of the iPOD low, and you will hear clear music. Increase the iPOD volume, and you will reach distortion very quickly even without touching the volume knob on your amp. That is why they have the iPOD docks. These extract the music at levels expected by the preamp and give you clean music.

The audio and video industry follows some standards. We must ensure we stick to those standards if we have to have clean sound and clean images.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

The 2 amps to one speaker set switch was handed over to me today. It is right now under testing. I will be posting photos, specifications and other detail on Monday/Tuesday.

At the outset, I must say I am very happy with the product. Came out much better than I expected. When I was shopping a few days ago in Ritchie street, I came across products that I never even knew were available. Made the whole process more professional.

Cheers

 

[suprateep]

The 2 amps to one speaker set switch was handed over to me today. It is right now under testing. I will be posting photos, specifications and other detail on Monday/Tuesday.

At the outset, I must say I am very happy with the product. Came out much better than I expected. When I was shopping a few days ago in Ritchie street, I came across products that I never even knew were available. Made the whole process more professional.

Cheers

yippeee:clapping:

me want same for my setup. me overjoyed. me have a solution now. 7.1 setup for the the avr and 2 for stereo amp.

Venkat sir eagerly waiting for the review and pictures.

 

[jeevabobby26]

The 2 amps to one speaker set switch was handed over to me today. It is right now under testing. I will be posting photos, specifications and other detail on Monday/Tuesday.

At the outset, I must say I am very happy with the product. Came out much better than I expected. When I was shopping a few days ago in Ritchie street, I came across products that I never even knew were available. Made the whole process more professional.

Cheers

Thanks venkatji for the excellent work spent for the speaker switcher for the forum members, dont know how to express the words to say about you. thanks for your preciuos time spent for the switcher and all the things you have done for us. I will be a scapegoat for your project (speaker switcher) if you wish venkatji.

Thanks..............

 

[venkatcr]

Actually the switch is being tested both electronically and by ears quite extensively. I am getting it tested with multimeters to see how much resistance it creates in between.

Since I was able to get some excellent parts, I am quite happy with the output. There will be no need for any scapegoat.

Cheers

 

[jeevabobby26]

Thanks venkatji,

Eagerly waiting for your result on the switcher. Let us know the details, output result, flexibilty, and the price of the swicther you had made for the members here who wish to buy it. thanks a lot once again venkat sir.

Regards.

 

[rallynut]

venkat,as always thanks a ton!!what would this forum do without you:clapping:???do let us know everything.cheers

 

[venkatcr]

venkat,as always thanks a ton!!what would this forum do without you:clapping:???do let us know everything.cheers

Thanks a million. I enjoy what I am doing here.

Cheers