Jayant_S
Well-Known Member
I use a similar switch in my setup and posted about it here:
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/my-three-months-journey-and-basic-set-up.78785/post-866603
Basic question on Amplifiers - Can one use an AVR and a Stereo amp together?
- Thread starter dannyarcher
- Start date
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/my-three-months-journey-and-basic-set-up.78785/post-866603
rpmahale
Well-Known Member
Considering the OP request THAT HE IS NOT HAPPY WITH THE PERFORMANCE OF AVR IN STEREO MODE, WHAT ARE THE POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS TO IMPROVE IT.
First thing first......you can't compare similar price avr and IA for sound quality. If you really want to then compare avr with IA which cost half to that avr. Any mid size to high end avr sound better in with movies and good enough with music...
Entry level avrs are mostly compromised in DAC and PA/PS sections to control the price. Improvement in these sections may improve the sound quality but it cost.
There are few options op may exercise which may improve sound quality to certain extend with the existing system .
1. Improve source
Switch from 320kbps to FLAC to MQA
Use dedicated CD player instead of Bluray player for music.
If possible use external DAC (with MQA if possible) for stereo like ifi Zen Dac
2. Cables and interconnects
Use good quality speaker cables and interconnect. I have experienced that cables and interconnect affect the sound quality. Play with speaker cable, interconnects, subwoofer cable, banana plugs etc.
3. Calibration and tone controls
Re-calibrate the system for optimum performance level. Use/bypass tone controls to suit your listening preference. Play with different options provided by avr to suit your listening preference like source/input level, audyssay, tone controls, DSP, Bass management , crossover etc.
4. Acoustic treatment and placement..
You can play with speaker/subwoofer positions to improve sound quality. You may play with MLP , furniture, curtains, floor mat/rug etc.
5. Bass management...
Most of the time entry level avr doesn't have enough power to reach the desired spl, in that case we increase the power and avr refuse to deliver it and introduce distortion. In this case Bass/power management comes handy tool to optmize the avr and subwoofer for performance level. In this case you have to integreat three variables in to one scale. First Integrated subwoofer with front speakers for crossover and then avr with subwoofer for power. But generally subwoofer to front speaker crossover is set to 100Hz and Power of subwoofer to half of that available. You may play with crossover and power to bring best of it. If you keep crossover high enough to reduce the load on avr, you may weaken the sound stage. If you increase the power of subwoofer then it may overpower the low end and continuously visible while listening music. If you keep low crossover you avr and front speaker may not ble to deliver that low end with enough power. Experimenting with these three keeping ears open may yield best possible results .
6. Bi amplification ....
Now days most of the avr come with Bi-amping mode in which you can use 6&7 channel to bi-amplify front speakers. Your avr must have a bi-amplify mode and the speakers must have arrangement for bi- amplification. In this case you can increase the power to front speakers at the sacrifice of 6&7 power channels.
These are few factors you may consider to improve sound quality without adding any external power device which may cost a bomb.
I will let you know how to integreat an avr with PA/IA to improve sound quality with or without pre out.
First thing first......you can't compare similar price avr and IA for sound quality. If you really want to then compare avr with IA which cost half to that avr. Any mid size to high end avr sound better in with movies and good enough with music...
Entry level avrs are mostly compromised in DAC and PA/PS sections to control the price. Improvement in these sections may improve the sound quality but it cost.
There are few options op may exercise which may improve sound quality to certain extend with the existing system .
1. Improve source
Switch from 320kbps to FLAC to MQA
Use dedicated CD player instead of Bluray player for music.
If possible use external DAC (with MQA if possible) for stereo like ifi Zen Dac
2. Cables and interconnects
Use good quality speaker cables and interconnect. I have experienced that cables and interconnect affect the sound quality. Play with speaker cable, interconnects, subwoofer cable, banana plugs etc.
3. Calibration and tone controls
Re-calibrate the system for optimum performance level. Use/bypass tone controls to suit your listening preference. Play with different options provided by avr to suit your listening preference like source/input level, audyssay, tone controls, DSP, Bass management , crossover etc.
4. Acoustic treatment and placement..
You can play with speaker/subwoofer positions to improve sound quality. You may play with MLP , furniture, curtains, floor mat/rug etc.
5. Bass management...
Most of the time entry level avr doesn't have enough power to reach the desired spl, in that case we increase the power and avr refuse to deliver it and introduce distortion. In this case Bass/power management comes handy tool to optmize the avr and subwoofer for performance level. In this case you have to integreat three variables in to one scale. First Integrated subwoofer with front speakers for crossover and then avr with subwoofer for power. But generally subwoofer to front speaker crossover is set to 100Hz and Power of subwoofer to half of that available. You may play with crossover and power to bring best of it. If you keep crossover high enough to reduce the load on avr, you may weaken the sound stage. If you increase the power of subwoofer then it may overpower the low end and continuously visible while listening music. If you keep low crossover you avr and front speaker may not ble to deliver that low end with enough power. Experimenting with these three keeping ears open may yield best possible results .
6. Bi amplification ....
Now days most of the avr come with Bi-amping mode in which you can use 6&7 channel to bi-amplify front speakers. Your avr must have a bi-amplify mode and the speakers must have arrangement for bi- amplification. In this case you can increase the power to front speakers at the sacrifice of 6&7 power channels.
These are few factors you may consider to improve sound quality without adding any external power device which may cost a bomb.
I will let you know how to integreat an avr with PA/IA to improve sound quality with or without pre out.
Freya/Freya+ has 3 Modes of Preamplifier function. 1. Passive 2. JFET Active ( Solid State) 3. Tube Active mode.
It doesn't have a HT bypass mode, the Volume control cannot be bypassed. Passive mode is very close to pure direct but volume control cannot be bypassed, so its not the same as HT bypass.
BTW, I don't think this has any bearing with what OP is asking. His Denon x1400 doesn't have front preouts, so he's better off buying a separate Integrated Amplifier for Stereo listening, along with a decent Source or DAC. Unfortunately he has to switch speaker cables each time he wants to toggle between stereo and HT using the same front speakers.
If for some reason he's not going that route, he could try few remedies.
1. Room treatment for front speakers, focused on Stereo listening
2. Carefully Repositioning the Front speakers to get the best stereo image and dynamics (millimeter perfect)
3. Running Audessey with only 2 Channels being connected and optimizing it further ( he should save this as stereo profile and toggle it with 5ch HT profile depending upon the requirements)
4. Ditching the Audessey altogether by taking the front bypass option in Audessey dynamic EQ setting and taking custom EQ route for front speakers.
5. Disabling the center channel altogether and listening in the multi channel stereo mode ( since all his speakers are from Same model and brand, this could be a better option)
6. Upgrading the Stereo Source to a better CD player, DAC or streamer
7. Finally Upgrading to a better AVR with preouts ( instead buying an integrated amp above 100wpc is a better alternative anyday) Qacoustics will definitely benefit from more power in my experience.
8. Unpopular option is to upgrade to high quality front speaker cables
Hopefully this helps!
Yes. We need to manually increase Freya+ to Full Volume, then only it will act as HT Bypass in Passive Mode.
No, Dialing the volume clock to max is still not HT bypass mode, the preamp will still work in passive mode and it will add its flavor to the sound signal, HT bypass should bypass the Volume dial and shouldn't add any color to the signal. By the way that's is a different discussion altogether. Lack of HT bypass and 12v trigger are one of the few drawbacks for Freya + as mentioned in most of the reviews. I don't use both features so it doesn't matter me.
I am confused.. Then why Schiit is advertising that all their Preamps supports HT Bypass...?
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Distortion won't happen as Denon AVR pre outputs only 1.2vrms signal to integrated amp.Integrated amps can accept up to 2vrms signals I guess.Integrated amp volume need to turn up to 90% up to match sound level to rest of speakers.
I have tried Preouts of avr connecting to multichannel input of another avr.Also connected avr preout to integrated amp and played moderately high volume.Distortion wasn't there,but yes signature do change due to 2nd pre in the chain.Also in long run,possibility can be load on integrated amp as avr will not output full 1.2vrms signals untill its volume is turned full.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
If source signals/players are different,then simple set 2 systems with same fronts.
can try following ways-
1. Use separate speaker wires and just swap at speaker terminals according to system you want to play.
2.Use a speaker switch to do the same.
Kirankj1724
Member
Hi,
I'm in similar situation too.
Trying to add to OP's query. I see the Denon AVR X1400H has zone 2 pre outs.
Can the zone 2 pre outs be used as inputs to an amp to improve the stereo capabilities?
So for music in stereo, just switch to zone 2.
I hope my query is not too silly and makes some sense.
I'm in similar situation too.
Trying to add to OP's query. I see the Denon AVR X1400H has zone 2 pre outs.
Can the zone 2 pre outs be used as inputs to an amp to improve the stereo capabilities?
So for music in stereo, just switch to zone 2.
I hope my query is not too silly and makes some sense.
There are only 2 places where that True Bypass is mentioned, but no mention of the same in the manual. It's basically unity gain feature (passive mode with volume all the way up) that's why there's no defined inputs for HT Bypass.
(HT bypass preamps are better designed than others. While some are unity gain units (as mentioned) they still process the signal and can impart a sonic signature which means that the 2 towers in a ht setup will have a slightly different sonic signature from the rest, Whereas HT Bypass preamp inputs totally Bypass the volume attenuator )
Schiit is not completely wrong in advertising, Hopefully this solves the confusion.
dazzwilliams
Active Member
Thanks for the explanation.
So, using Freya+ for HT Bypass will not damage the Power Amp & speakers right.. This is my main objective.
I am ok with slight coloration as long as it is not damaging anything.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Not at allI hope you didn't blow up anything
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Better try Audyssesy again after new amp added in the chain. Something may improve to desired results.
Enquiring along similar lines as the OP pertaining to include an integrated amplifier with a receiver for stereo & HT. Since I have small bookshelf for fronts, I need the subwoofer for both stereo & for movies. Question is how can I include the subwoofer in both the setups with the integrated for stereo & the receiver for movies. How would one go about with Audyssey XT 32 calibration in this case.
Currently using Marantz SR 7011, with Dali Oberon 1 for front & surrounds & SVS PC 2000 subwoofer.
Thanks,
Nitin
Currently using Marantz SR 7011, with Dali Oberon 1 for front & surrounds & SVS PC 2000 subwoofer.
Thanks,
Nitin
If the Subwoofer has high level inputs (like speaker binding posts) connect integrated amplifier's speaker out to it.
Use LFE Rca input to connect to AVR.
If it doesn't have speaker level inputs and has Right and Left Rca in, connect LFE input on subwoofer to AVR and other to Integrated amplifier via its preouts.
You can use 2 in 1 or Y cable if there's only 1 Rca input to the subwoofer ( 1 Rca Male to 2 rca female)
If your AVR is SR 7011, it is good for music listening as well. You'd need very good integrated amplifier to better the performance of Sr 7011.
TOTL receivers rarely need better amplifiers when listening to music. Unless you have very demanding LR speakers or you are listening extremely loud.
With a sub in the mix, its even reason to ditch the integrated.
Thanks a lot DrKrack. There are no high level inputs on the sub but it has the right & left RCA in. It sorts out the connections. I am pretty much satisfied with the sound of the SR 7011. But wanted a simple integrated for stereo as an option where I don't have to tinker around much with the sound . With the SR 7011, I still find myself adjusting the settings through the phone app even after using it for 2 years. I was planning to change my fronts to bigger bookshelfs in the future & planning to go for the Peach Tree Nova 300 for the stereo setup. But after emailing them about my query, I was told that I could not integrate the sub with the Nova 300 but use them with the fronts for stereo . I do need the sub for bass for 2.1 & 5.1 since the fronts are small.
Regards,
Nitin
eastofthesun
Well-Known Member
i gather you will be using your front left and right channels only for your stereo listening correct? In case you do, i have a similar setup due to paucity of space hence i have balanced outs from my pre to the power for my stereo listening and for my movie watching i have RCA outs from my AVR to power amps. There is a toggle switch in my power amp which helps me select between stereo and AVR . This is the the cleanest possible solution i have come across. So basically you need a nice pre amp and a set of power amps which let you switch between stereo and AVR
Cheers!
Anand
dannyarcher
Active Member
Hello everyone,
Apologies for not replying sooner.
I've gone through all the threads and made a diagram to summarises the suggestions given. This helps me to understand how these systems work and might be useful to others. I hope that the attached diagram is a right summary?
Many thanks to each one of you for taking the time to explain how this works.
@Love4sound @SEANDSILVA @sathtom @MaSh
Apologies for not replying sooner.
I've gone through all the threads and made a diagram to summarises the suggestions given. This helps me to understand how these systems work and might be useful to others. I hope that the attached diagram is a right summary?
Many thanks to each one of you for taking the time to explain how this works.
@Love4sound @SEANDSILVA @sathtom @MaSh
Last edited:
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