anm
Well-Known Member
If you prove to me that cables do make a difference, I will run away with yours!
:yahoo:
:yahoo:
cable facts
- Thread starter srikarkav
- Start date
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Hi,
I deliberately stay away from such threads as most of the times its clash of ego's and such which talks not the morals!
Anyways I have my reasons for posting ! I have been keeping quite for long time on this (didn't bother to enter the power cord thread and other for the same reason) but couldn't stop myself from posting
Suri Couldn't have said it better :clapping:!! Especially the shoulder part :lol: ! Very true what you say !
I for the longest period in time have played with cables and know what constitutes what in cable (if not 100% atleast 25%) ! so when I decide to make a cable for myself I exactly know what to Aim and how to achieve
Now with the above said experience,I was able to convince myself and others who were part of the event that cables have and will continue have their Importance in the system !
I would agree with Arj here ! If someone ridicules importance of cables in this way,then perhaps he ought to be doing the same for every damn electronics thats out there ! If I start to expand the list of these electronics then all hell will break loose so skipping it
But one simple example,if two amps are of the same type and are indetical in design (there's only so much of a difference that one can come up with ),Lets say both are Class A with almost same features,one is made by X and the other by Y they both should sound same,isn't it ???
But do they sound the same ? what constitutes the change in sound ? both are same type uses same technology etc.....
If they can say all Amps,Speakers in the world are Snake Oil and every speaker and every Pre,Amp,CDP etc etc sound the same !! then perhaps I can agree that a Coat hanger or better yet a Speedometer inner cable from grandfathers Java will sound the same as a Shunyata Research's Aero's or Goertz Alphacore to the local MAX cable that Srikarkav has mentioned
Finally here's the real deal, I here by summon all the folks who are non believers of the importance of cables to come and experience the fact ! If Am not able to convince them that cable will make a difference then I shall throw all my cables and start using what they say,Heck I'd even use a 2Rs/mtr footpath cable from then on !
But if they are convinced that cables do make difference,what are they willing to do ????
Its on who's up for it ???
Regards.
Soundsgreat.
In more than 99 percent of cases where people say there is no difference with cables, it is mostly a case of the following:
1. They have not checked it out in a revealing enough system.
2. They have never checked it out themselves but instead choose to believe articles on the net.
3. They are unable to hear the difference due to some issue with their ear/brain or the differences are not important/significant to them. Eg: Once I had a friend who does not believe in cables listen to two cables in my system with the fourth movement in the carlos kleiber - Beethoven symphony-5. In one cable we could easily make out the separation of instruments within the mass of instruments and the tone was true. The other one masked this separation with a Glaze over the mass of instruments and the tone was sharp and bright.
The remark from my friend was I do not listen to western classical anyways Can you show me this difference with some music from Metallica or Guns and roses ? Obviously I couldnt show him the difference.
I have heard atleast two dozen well setup systems and believe me; I never have heard anything close to great sound unless the owner has taken great pains to setup the system correctly with the right cables and placement. Shoving expensive gear into some corner with some random cables will generate clear sound but it will never be close to natural sound. I learned this some 7 8 years back when I met this elderly gentleman who had a pair of 15 year old ancient loudspeakers from KEF and a very old forte amp/preamp. When I listen to his perfectly SETUP system, my Jaws almost fell to the floor
The system was sounding far far better than many modern expensive systems which were obviously imperfectly setup with bad cables and placement.
Last edited:
soundsgreat
New Member
Hi,
Magma I read your whole post! wanted to reply it yesterday itself but thought let me wait till morning and reply ! I remember what you had posted so you like will reply !
Keith I too would've loved to have you over! but whenever you happen to travel just keep it in mind !
Anm Thats a very good one,Hilarious :lol: ! Sure buddy you can runaway with my cables no probs ! But you should accept the fact publicly thoughhyeah: !
Vinny I agree to the most of the things you've said ! They are so mentally blocked by the notion that their brains refuse to pickup these differences (no offense meant to anyone ) !
Regards.
Magma I read your whole post
! wanted to reply it yesterday itself but thought let me wait till morning and reply ! I remember what you had posted so you like will reply !Keith I too would've loved to have you over
! but whenever you happen to travel just keep it in mind !Anm Thats a very good one,Hilarious :lol: ! Sure buddy you can runaway with my cables no probs ! But you should accept the fact publicly though
hyeah: !Vinny I agree to the most of the things you've said ! They are so mentally blocked by the notion that their brains refuse to pickup these differences (no offense meant to anyone
) !Regards.
Very well said Square . personally I have found point 2 to be most true..most people believe in what they want to believe and very often the most "scientific " conclusion is that they do not make a difference :sad: which ironically goes opposite to the principles of scientific thought of trying it out in the first place !
Disclaimer: er..i am making a generic statement here about us audiophiles in general and not against anyone in this forum in particular
.My initial few years in this hobby were as a cable sceptic and then a cable agnostic ! . even today i anot really tortal gung ho about it but can appreciate their importance (IMHO)
Last edited:
Hi all,
The sound should change with different cables, it's a matter of physics and not one of personal preference, likes and dislikes. Now, if that difference is not heard is only attributable to the resolution of the accompanying instruments (including our ears).
Before, I go on, using an analogy below, to explain the above, let me just say that many self-proclaimed scientific articles on the net say a lot of things, describe results of scientific measurements and so on, but mostly they do not address the correct questions. For non-technical people, it is best not to worry about such articles and personal preferences and likes and dislikes (both for and against the argument), and just listen to the music and decide. Needless to say, a bit of music appreciation at least is needed (if not more) to do a proper listening and appreciate the appropriate issues.
Having said all that, let me now give an analogy to explain the physics part. We all know sunlight is predominantly white (barring details). Let me then ask: why does the sky look blue? Why does the sky look crimson at the time of the sunrise and the sunset? why does the sun look bigger at these times than all other times?
The answers we learn in our high school and middle school physics. The answer is: all these things happen the way they do because of scattering of light from the sun by air-particles in our atmosphere.
The general phenomenon of reflection, refraction and diffraction of light at boundaries of the medium are macroscopic descriptions of scattering of light waves by the particles of the medium.
Similarly when an electrical signal propagates in a given medium (like the cables we are discussing), they go through a continuous process of scattering, in a sense. A copper cable of 1m length will have several thousand crystal boundaries where reflection, refraction etc of the signal in general will take place.
Now the predominant effect of all this is a change in the spectrum, like the blue sky etc mentioned above obtained from white sunlight. That is, the frequency distribution of the original signal gets changed, and their relative intensities also change. Obviously, if the copper cable of a few meter length can be so made that it is comprised of just one crystal, then many of these ill-effects will be eliminated. Actually oxygen is one common impurity in copper and the oxygen predominantly resides in the places of the numerous crystal boundaries. To make it oxygen-free, one good way is to have fewer crystal boundaries, that is to have an extended crystal.
The above is on the propagation of a signal in a medium.
There is more. Unlike gravitational forces, electromagnetic forces and fields can be shielded. In a good cable, there will be less influence on it from adjoining power cables and other possible EM interferences, as a result there will be a smaller noise floor, one result of that is : the dynamic range will appear as better.
Like it or hate it, the above is not my personal opinion. These are facts of Physics.
The sound should change with different cables, it's a matter of physics and not one of personal preference, likes and dislikes. Now, if that difference is not heard is only attributable to the resolution of the accompanying instruments (including our ears).
Before, I go on, using an analogy below, to explain the above, let me just say that many self-proclaimed scientific articles on the net say a lot of things, describe results of scientific measurements and so on, but mostly they do not address the correct questions. For non-technical people, it is best not to worry about such articles and personal preferences and likes and dislikes (both for and against the argument), and just listen to the music and decide. Needless to say, a bit of music appreciation at least is needed (if not more) to do a proper listening and appreciate the appropriate issues.
Having said all that, let me now give an analogy to explain the physics part. We all know sunlight is predominantly white (barring details). Let me then ask: why does the sky look blue? Why does the sky look crimson at the time of the sunrise and the sunset? why does the sun look bigger at these times than all other times?
The answers we learn in our high school and middle school physics. The answer is: all these things happen the way they do because of scattering of light from the sun by air-particles in our atmosphere.
The general phenomenon of reflection, refraction and diffraction of light at boundaries of the medium are macroscopic descriptions of scattering of light waves by the particles of the medium.
Similarly when an electrical signal propagates in a given medium (like the cables we are discussing), they go through a continuous process of scattering, in a sense. A copper cable of 1m length will have several thousand crystal boundaries where reflection, refraction etc of the signal in general will take place.
Now the predominant effect of all this is a change in the spectrum, like the blue sky etc mentioned above obtained from white sunlight. That is, the frequency distribution of the original signal gets changed, and their relative intensities also change. Obviously, if the copper cable of a few meter length can be so made that it is comprised of just one crystal, then many of these ill-effects will be eliminated. Actually oxygen is one common impurity in copper and the oxygen predominantly resides in the places of the numerous crystal boundaries. To make it oxygen-free, one good way is to have fewer crystal boundaries, that is to have an extended crystal.
The above is on the propagation of a signal in a medium.
There is more. Unlike gravitational forces, electromagnetic forces and fields can be shielded. In a good cable, there will be less influence on it from adjoining power cables and other possible EM interferences, as a result there will be a smaller noise floor, one result of that is : the dynamic range will appear as better.
Like it or hate it, the above is not my personal opinion. These are facts of Physics.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
asit sir
that post makes complete sense
but i have another question
wouldnt all cable companies know these facts and try and reduce all the ill effects of this
Technology today is in the hands of all. I wouldnt be surprised if Most good cable companies use exactly the same tecnology ( at least 80%) to manufacture their cables
Hence i would belive that most should end up having approx the same properties na.?
Yes the flavour might differ a bit ( one may have more salt the other more chillies)
but would not the basic preparation be the same
Hence though i would agree that due to the above there may be small differneces but not large enough to actually notice in most of the /basic/entry level systems owned by many here(at least thats the experience ive had with a lot of music systems ive changed over the years in my cars)
(now im talking about pure cu cables here not ones with silver and other exotics mixed)
Though this is not related at all just as an example i wanted to say the most hardware items mfg in china are done using the exact same components bought from the same raw material dealers using the same machinery ( yes ive been to a few factories and seen it myself)
however pricing varies purely due to aesthetics and brand name
im just using the same analogy to show my point
as ive said before im not comparing a roadside 10rs a metre cable to a 500rs one(your bound to hear some difference there
im just saying that at least i cant hear much difference in the music i hear when i change from wicab OFC ( little known brand) rs 50/m cable to monster 200rs/ metre cable on my system (which is quite basic)
that post makes complete sense
but i have another question
wouldnt all cable companies know these facts and try and reduce all the ill effects of this
Technology today is in the hands of all. I wouldnt be surprised if Most good cable companies use exactly the same tecnology ( at least 80%) to manufacture their cables
Hence i would belive that most should end up having approx the same properties na.?
Yes the flavour might differ a bit ( one may have more salt the other more chillies)
but would not the basic preparation be the same
Hence though i would agree that due to the above there may be small differneces but not large enough to actually notice in most of the /basic/entry level systems owned by many here(at least thats the experience ive had with a lot of music systems ive changed over the years in my cars)
(now im talking about pure cu cables here not ones with silver and other exotics mixed)
Though this is not related at all just as an example i wanted to say the most hardware items mfg in china are done using the exact same components bought from the same raw material dealers using the same machinery ( yes ive been to a few factories and seen it myself)
however pricing varies purely due to aesthetics and brand name
im just using the same analogy to show my point
as ive said before im not comparing a roadside 10rs a metre cable to a 500rs one(your bound to hear some difference there
im just saying that at least i cant hear much difference in the music i hear when i change from wicab OFC ( little known brand) rs 50/m cable to monster 200rs/ metre cable on my system (which is quite basic)
Hi magma,
I am a theoretical physicist and by nature I have tried explaining the basic physics facts about a signal propagation in a material medium and the scattering and some of its main effects. Nowhere in my post I have referred to anything else.
I do not know anything about economics or business like some of you. Obviously it's a business world out there and there are companies to rip off people. So I guess people have to be careful in optimizing their buys.
I suppose many cable companies buy their cables from the same factories and then make a packaging and sell in their names. These cables should not sound too different from each other. Companies such as VDH make their own cables.
However, there are many different grades of copper. It depends on how exactly they are made. Of course they would be different from each other.
Then there is the question of shielding EM effects. That also would make ICs different, not so much speaker cables.
Just this week, I bought Finolex 3 core 4 sq meter cables at Rs90/m cost for making a good extension box (with Crabtree switches). Good cables are costly.
But again, I do not want to get into a discussion of economics and business of cables. I have described my own experience with cables at several places in this forum, but you would never see me recommending a cable to anybody. But generally good cables are expensive, a few hundred rupees do not make a difference there.
Yes, reju, I am qualified to talk about the physics, actually I am also qualified to talk about music (not so much audio equipments), but not qualified at all about the economics and the business part. In Physics, there is nothing called self-proclamation. One has to prove or justify one's statements, and whatever I have written in my previous post is all tested and proven facts of Physics. I understand you are from a different background, and hence have written whatever you have written.
It's a free world out there. Listen to music a lot with different combinations, cables whatever you like, and buy whatever your mind tells you.
I am a theoretical physicist and by nature I have tried explaining the basic physics facts about a signal propagation in a material medium and the scattering and some of its main effects. Nowhere in my post I have referred to anything else.
I do not know anything about economics or business like some of you. Obviously it's a business world out there and there are companies to rip off people. So I guess people have to be careful in optimizing their buys.
I suppose many cable companies buy their cables from the same factories and then make a packaging and sell in their names. These cables should not sound too different from each other. Companies such as VDH make their own cables.
However, there are many different grades of copper. It depends on how exactly they are made. Of course they would be different from each other.
Then there is the question of shielding EM effects. That also would make ICs different, not so much speaker cables.
Just this week, I bought Finolex 3 core 4 sq meter cables at Rs90/m cost for making a good extension box (with Crabtree switches). Good cables are costly.
But again, I do not want to get into a discussion of economics and business of cables. I have described my own experience with cables at several places in this forum, but you would never see me recommending a cable to anybody. But generally good cables are expensive, a few hundred rupees do not make a difference there.
Yes, reju, I am qualified to talk about the physics, actually I am also qualified to talk about music (not so much audio equipments), but not qualified at all about the economics and the business part. In Physics, there is nothing called self-proclamation. One has to prove or justify one's statements, and whatever I have written in my previous post is all tested and proven facts of Physics. I understand you are from a different background, and hence have written whatever you have written.
It's a free world out there. Listen to music a lot with different combinations, cables whatever you like, and buy whatever your mind tells you.
at the end of the day, i am sure that each one of us, having taken care to put together a perfect system, will only want 99.99999 % pure OFC copper wire which was made in the Nippon factory using extra-ordinary vibration damped copper-wire-producing-machinery!!
none of us will ever use V-Guard home cables to connect amplifiers to our speaker systems:lol:
we will definitely only use the above grade of copper wire, carefully sheathed and shielded, and perhaps braided too, simply because most of us have a passing knowledge of physics, and it is simply not enough, we know, to use cheap cabling and expect a golden response.
another aspect is the mental satisfaction that one gets when one thinks of the thought, time and effort that somebody would have put into the making of the cable.
But yes, discussion about cables usually is fruitless, and each of us should seek our own lonely truths!
none of us will ever use V-Guard home cables to connect amplifiers to our speaker systems:lol:
we will definitely only use the above grade of copper wire, carefully sheathed and shielded, and perhaps braided too, simply because most of us have a passing knowledge of physics, and it is simply not enough, we know, to use cheap cabling and expect a golden response.
another aspect is the mental satisfaction that one gets when one thinks of the thought, time and effort that somebody would have put into the making of the cable.
But yes, discussion about cables usually is fruitless, and each of us should seek our own lonely truths!
Last edited:
I am a newbie in audiophile circles, but I can vouch that cables do make a difference. Taking my experiments to the extreme - I even grabbed an "Anaconda" (Hiss!!) snaking around and put it between my amp and speakers and it made a good deal of difference over the 16 guage DAC cables.
I'm referring to the cable made by SoundsGreat on this forum of course!! :lol:
I am currently using since many weeks a custom pure silver flat (non stranded) IC between cdp and amp and a custom copper IC between pre-out<>main-in from a local audiophile source. The sound changes when I swap cables. The custom silver coated copper IC made by SoundsGreat also sounds different from the custom copper IC from this other source.
Some changes I observed (heard) involve how rounded the bass lines "feel" with the "air" around them, how overall frequencies even out or some get pronounced, level of detail and resolution, and also how much energetic my system sounds at the same volume level with a swap of ICs.
Another example - both silver and copper typically have some numerical readings involving concepts like capacitance or inductance ( did I get it right?) So you would think given some lab measurements or readings one should be able to predict the way it sounds correct?
Well my silver IC has a metallic tinge to the sound - just like some antibiotics leave a metallic taste on the tongue all day long. Now could anyone reading numbers for the measurements have predicted that? Or the experience that one copper IC causes the low bass to bloom uncomfortably while another doesn't? Or that the silver IC lends a delicious sharpness or rough edge to the sound that actually sounds a little more authentic and closer to analog T.T sources as compared to the excessively smoothened and softened out sound of CD's? Or that flat non-stranded pure silver robs the system of some low frequency weight and replaces it with some detail - a perfect complement for people struggling to tame bass heavy setups!!
That is why cable stuff is called Voodoo and Blackmagic by many.hyeah:
Just my chaar-aanas
HTH
I'm referring to the cable made by SoundsGreat on this forum of course!! :lol:
I am currently using since many weeks a custom pure silver flat (non stranded) IC between cdp and amp and a custom copper IC between pre-out<>main-in from a local audiophile source. The sound changes when I swap cables. The custom silver coated copper IC made by SoundsGreat also sounds different from the custom copper IC from this other source.
Some changes I observed (heard) involve how rounded the bass lines "feel" with the "air" around them, how overall frequencies even out or some get pronounced, level of detail and resolution, and also how much energetic my system sounds at the same volume level with a swap of ICs.
Another example - both silver and copper typically have some numerical readings involving concepts like capacitance or inductance ( did I get it right?
) So you would think given some lab measurements or readings one should be able to predict the way it sounds correct? Well my silver IC has a metallic tinge to the sound - just like some antibiotics leave a metallic taste on the tongue all day long. Now could anyone reading numbers for the measurements have predicted that? Or the experience that one copper IC causes the low bass to bloom uncomfortably while another doesn't? Or that the silver IC lends a delicious sharpness or rough edge to the sound that actually sounds a little more authentic and closer to analog T.T sources as compared to the excessively smoothened and softened out sound of CD's? Or that flat non-stranded pure silver robs the system of some low frequency weight and replaces it with some detail - a perfect complement for people struggling to tame bass heavy setups!!
That is why cable stuff is called Voodoo and Blackmagic by many.
hyeah:Just my chaar-aanas
HTH
Last edited:
anm
Well-Known Member
some of you may be interested in this
Blue Horizon Announces a Burn-in Accelerator for Cables-AVRev.com
Blue Horizon Announces a Burn-in Accelerator for Cables-AVRev.com
Just this week, I bought Finolex 3 core 4 sq meter cables at Rs90/m cost for making a good extension box (with Crabtree switches). Good cables are costly.
Hi, i was advised from pro world to go for Finolex 3 core 4 sq but i couldnt get a few meters hence droped it. can you tell me your listening experience and from where you bought.
Hi, i was advised from pro world to go for Finolex 3 core 4 sq but i couldnt get a few meters hence droped it. can you tell me your listening experience and from where you bought.
This finolex cable is very good. Makes a great no fuss power cord. Please dont expect it to 'dramatically improve the listening experience'. It will provide the current reqd and more for most HIFI as the wires inside are 4 sq.mm. Use it as a power cord directly for your gear or as a cable to make an extension box (like asit has done). IMO its also very reasonably priced @ Rs 90 per meter. The Supra 2.5 sq.mm power cord is thinner naturally but has an aluminium foil as a screen/has a tin coating on the copper strands and this is priced at Rs 1500 per meter and to my untrained ears both these power cords sound almost the same.
Last edited:
Order your Rega Turntables & Amplifiers from HiFiMART.com - India's reputed online dealer.
