cable facts

[stevieboy]

a very basic flaw. you're assuming the software is correct! different cables do make a difference. hearing differences is plain when swapping cables, mostly in presentation of the music, different cables highlight different parts of the music. the same information is there though the software will not make out differences in levels of highlighting. at least that's my take

cables like any other piece of equipment are system dependent. whether more expensive is better is another question altogether.

 

[keith_correa]

There will be a difference between a equalized and non- equalized wav file. That is a clear and straight-forward test. You can do this without speakers. Hell, you don't even need to test

The testing system is flawed if you are trying to check if accessories these make any difference to a listener.
For example: How does a soundcard know if an isolation system under a transport is making a difference ? The vibration caused by loudspeakers is what will cause differences. If you take the speaker out of the equation, how are you going to evaluate ?
Cables and other accessories are very much system dependant. The entire system including your ears and room comes into the picture when you evaluate what accessories work for you.

In the case of a speaker cable, how will you test if there are no speakers in the test ? It is the interaction between the amplifier, speaker and speaker wire which causes a certain sound

Let's say the isolation under a transport or even a CD mat is making a difference - what does the difference translate to tangibly? A difference in sound? Isn't what is coming out of the RCA or XLR socket of the transport be affected ultimately? Or are you saying that what is coming out of the RCA or XLR socket is not affected in any case and "something else" is affecting the sound if isolation is applied to the transport? Now if what is coming out of the transport is affected then it should be measurable before and after applying the isolation, right? The "before" and "after" signals is what we should capture and the difference in the "before" and "after" signals should be the effect of the "isolation".

In the case of a speaker cable then I can plug in the speaker end of the cable into the input jack of the soundcard and capture output. Folks please correct me if I am wrong here.

And I'm leaving out speakers out of the equation when equating speaker cables because even ignorant me knows that even if we use just one type of cable and swap multiple types of speakers to the same cable then those speakers WILL sound different because most often than not speakers are the weakest link in the chain. We are measuring cables and not speakers. If the signal coming out of the speaker end of the cable is going to be different because of different cable types then it should be measurable...Yada. Yada. Yada.

 

[anm]

plugging speaker level into sound card may fry your card, or the laptop - this is my assumption. But you can verify that by connecting speaker level with sound card, and we will all be wiser :lol:

 

[keith_correa]

a very basic flaw. you're assuming the software is correct! different cables do make a difference. hearing differences is plain when swapping cables, mostly in presentation of the music, different cables highlight different parts of the music. the same information is there though the software will not make out differences in levels of highlighting. at least that's my take

cables like any other piece of equipment are system dependent. whether more expensive is better is another question altogether.

You are right - the "flaw" is that I'm assuming that the software is correct.

Let's say that cables make a difference. Would you agree that all things being equal except the cables, the signals coming out of these different cables would/may be different [in any way - miniscule or otherwise] to indeed make a difference in sound? And that the differences - if any - in the signals is caused by the difference in the cables?

 

[keith_correa]

plugging speaker level into sound card may fry your card, or the laptop - this is my assumption. But you can verify that by connecting speaker level with sound card, and we will all be wiser :lol:

Been there, done that. No fries for lunch :lol:

 

[square_wave]

Transport:
Assuming the software is perfectly capable of measuring all errors (jitter, timing error etc)then:
Try keeping the speakers nearby the transport blasting concert level music and capture the digital signal with and without an isolation system.

Speaker cables:
There is an intimate interaction between all 3 components (amp, cable and speaker) which cause a sound. You will not be able to measure this from the voltage signal which comes at the business end of the speaker cable. It has to go full circle for any meaningful evaluation.

 

[gobble]

Keith

Instead of the intellectual debates, just drop in to a fellow audiophiles place and try swapping various cables and listen for yourself. that will kill the debates in this thread for sure

Regards

 

[stevieboy]

hi keith,

my thinking is that the cable interacts with the speaker crossover/design and that interaction is what we hear differently.

at the end of the day if you cannot hear differences then cables ought to be a closed chapter and you can spend more time on the other parts of the system. ultimately your ears are definitely not replicable so whether the software is correct or incorrect i tend to go with what i can hear. if there is a difference and i cannot hear it no point paying extra for that difference eh?

regards

 

[keith_correa]

Keith

Instead of the intellectual debates, just drop in to a fellow audiophiles place and try swapping various cables and listen for yourself. that will kill the debates in this thread for sure

Regards

I lapsed into intellectual debates because for the life of me I really CANNOT discern differences. I thought it was my system so I went to a fellow audiophile friend and tried the cable swap on his system - still no go.
BTW - my audiophile friend first lapsed into raptures on how "open" and "airy" and "depth" the sound went to when he swapped my el-cheapo wire to his cardas cable but when I did BLIND a/b tests - he got things wrong 8 out of 10. Like I said - my ears may be non-OFC :lol::lol:

 

[keith_correa]

Transport:
Assuming the software is perfectly capable of measuring all errors (jitter, timing error etc)then:
Try keeping the speakers nearby the transport blasting concert level music and capture the digital signal with and without an isolation system.

Speaker cables:
There is an intimate interaction between all 3 components (amp, cable and speaker) which cause a sound. You will not be able to measure this from the voltage signal which comes at the business end of the speaker cable. It has to go full circle for any meaningful evaluation.

I did this:

Used my CD transport & my pre & power amps and my el-cheapo speaker cable into my PC. Using gain X, I recorded "So Much to Say" from the Dave Matthews Band album "crash". Got file 1.

Substituted the CD transport with my DVD player, used my pre & power amps and my el-cheapo speaker cable into my PC. Using the same gain, I recorded "So Much to Say" from the Dave Matthews Band album "crash". Got file 2.

Compared file 1 & 2 - had differences.

 

[anm]

see, your cheapo cable is interacting differently with different transports! :yahoo:

 

[keith_correa]

see, your cheapo cable is interacting differently with different transports! :yahoo:

Not only my cable but my pre/power amps too. But of course they would. No dispute there. But then we would be measuring the transport - wouldn't we?
To come to the point - speaker cables!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[magma]

keith

just keep to the budget
(mine is 7-8% of speaker cost)

you should have a decent cable for your particualr system

( now silver coating etc will affect the sound - depending on your rig but regualr pure cuppor should do)

 

[keith_correa]

Yesterday I found my fathers oooold Philips turntable in the attic. Still worked. Hooked it up to my amp and played an old Hank Williams vinyl for him. He was in a state of bliss. I have the exact same remastered album on CD and to me it sounded no better [or worse] than the CD version but he kept harping on on how better vinyl sounded as compared to the CD...

I didn't have the heart to say that I thought the sound was the same to me because he was so happy. Then I thought - why not take the same attitude with the guys who say cables make a difference to sound instead of arguing with them and asking for proof and stuff. If it makes people happy like my Dad was happy - more power to them.
I'll go one step further - I'll build the Jon Risch/Thorsten Loesch speaker cable and use that in my rig - not for my ears but for people who listen to my system and bug me telling me to upgrade my cable so that the sound is more "telling" - I'll tell them that I auditioned and compared multiple cables and that this one was the best sounding. What the hell - it will make them happy too and get them off my back

So, with that said - I'm walking away quietly...

 

[nitinbose]

Hi Everyone,

Let me add my experience with speaker cables.

I'd just bought QED cables for the front and center speakers, to start with. For the fronts, I bought the 2.5mm cable costing INR 210/- per meter, while for center I'd bought the 1.25mm cable costing INR 125/- per meter.

I must say, I totally agree with all those who said "speaker cables are simply a snake-oil business"

I could not find any difference at all...hyeah:

The performance I'm getting is quite identical to what I've been getting with my Onkyo speaker cables.

So friends, stop worrying much about cables!!!

Thanks,

Nitin.

 

[magma]

nitin

though i agree with you that many a time it is snake oil , however its not entirely true
(however in your case it most probably is)

im guessing you are using an onkyo receiver and speakers
As ive said before cable should always be bought with respect to you other equip

now if the onkyo reciever and speakers have internal cabling which is of infereir quality than the QED you have bought then there are high chances you wont hear much difference.
howver hi end rigs with better quality stuff would demand better cabling to make full use.

Always buy cable with respect to your rig.
7-8% of your speaker/amp cost should be sufficeint

 

[nitinbose]

Hi Magma,

I'm not using Onkyo. I have a Denon AVR1909, with Wharfedale Atlantic 400SE fronts and Onkyo speakers for the remaining.

Do we have any way of knowing whether the internal cabling of avr/speakers are good?

I believe all healthier branded stuff should be good enough.

thanks,

Nitin.

 

[neutral]

I must say, I totally agree with all those who said "speaker cables are simply a snake-oil business"

I could not find any difference at all...hyeah:

Nitin.

If it did not make a difference to you, you wasted your money
Do not assume it will not make differences for others or in a different level of equipment which can resolve differences

 

[venkatcr]

Do we have any way of knowing whether the internal cabling of avr/speakers are good?

Nitin, do not worry about this at all. In the recent past a good friend of mine was using a regular wire that he uses in bulk for internal wiring. I asked him the same question, To show me he took that wire, measured the resistance across a short length, and measured the resistance across VDH cable of equal thickness across the same length. There was no difference at all.

Good speaker brands such as Wharfedale ensure that the wires they use internally have very low resistance and carry nearly 100% of the data across. They use special wires made for internal wiring across many such brands.

In AVRs very little wires are used as most of connections are done through PCBs and PCB sockets. Companies such as Denon use high grade solder and these, again, carry data without fail.

Use decent speaker cables to connect your amp to speakers, and you will have a good system.

I firmly believe that when you buy a good brand, one of the advantages is that you can be sure they would have taken care of such things.

Worrying about these things is a sheer waste of time. You start worrying about internal wires, then the transistors used, then the solder used, then which chips are used and so on and so forth. When are you going to stop and enjoy the movie or music?

As a general consumer we can only audition brands and choose one we like. After that we must stop worrying unnecessarily and enjoy what we have.

Cheers

 

[SuhasG]

As a general consumer we can only audition brands and choose one we like. After that we must stop worrying unnecessarily and enjoy what we have.

Good one Venkat!