CAT 7 - Ethernet Cable - Revelation Audio Labs - USA -

[arj]

While the USB is OT, in the Bangalore Hi Fi meet, siva of Accoustic portrait had shared about his experiments with the USB cable. Apparently disconnecting the power wire (I think pin 1) improves the quality of the sound.

So thats something to try out.

 

[abhijitnath]

Yes;
We went through 5 Cables first.
Then 5 Cables again.
Short listed 3
Went through 3 & then 3 again.
Until we finished for the session - no one was told what was what.
However, the cable make / model / brand etc. was not important [to me at least] since I was 1st trying to establish if there was difference at all.
A double blind test is OK if I want to vet if the results of the cable preference choice is 100 % correct.
Here, that was not mu intent.
I just wanted to see [hear] if there was a difference in sound between the different CAT Cables.
So weather a was best or c was best or that d performed better than b - all
this was not the priority;
All said, what has come out so far - [a] all cables 'sound' different
all panelist did not like the same cable - in fact some did not like the cable at all which was liked by others.

I have always stated that cables are very very personal.
What floats 1 persons boat, may not float the other persons boat.

But, these CAT's were the 'cheapest' tune / equalizer devices that I have ever come across. Under 400/- Rs. & they can change the sound of a system that is far far more expensive - like air in the tyre of a car - cheapest thing can change the performance & handling of an expensive car;; Sorry OT.

- madbullram

Sir, Thank You; Appreciate.

Hi Bhagwan,

I'm not trolling, but that is not how double (or even single) blind testing should work. Let's say a person likes 'a', another liked 'b'. How can you reliably say that that is a real like, or even a difference? If you play 4 cables and are asked to like one, because of the shortness of audio memory, bias and the like, there is no way to tell whether that 'like' was real from a single test. Run the test ten times, i.e. play 4 cables 10 times each- if anybody says they liked 'b' 8 times out of ten, that would constitute a demonstrable like. I'm sure you've read about the famous Mike Lavigne test on AVSForum a few years ago.

 

[abhijitnath]

Also, about the RJ45 cable, there are locking Neutrik connectors available. My Variax guitar has one- this is what it looks like. http://www.vettaville.com/images/cable_ends.jpg

 

[bhagwan]

Also, about the RJ45 cable, there are locking Neutrik connectors available. My Variax guitar has one- this is what it looks like. http://www.vettaville.com/images/cable_ends.jpg

Yes Sir,
I am aware;
However, the 'female' receptacle for it on the Lan Card - Computer does not exist. Hence this cannot be used. I would love to use it.

 

[abhijitnath]

The female adapter is available too I think- you might have to do some surgery on your computer chassis (if I remember correctly you have a self assembled machine, so should be doable!)

 

[bhagwan]

Hi Bhagwan,

I'm not trolling, but that is not how double (or even single) blind testing should work. Let's say a person likes 'a', another liked 'b'. How can you reliably say that that is a real like, or even a difference? If you play 4 cables and are asked to like one, because of the shortness of audio memory, bias and the like, there is no way to tell whether that 'like' was real from a single test. Run the test ten times, i.e. play 4 cables 10 times each- if anybody says they liked 'b' 8 times out of ten, that would constitute a demonstrable like. I'm sure you've read about the famous Mike Lavigne test on AVSForum a few years ago.

Sir,
I am aware of how it works;
The issues here are :-
a]
All the Panel members are doing me a 'favour' by visiting for my benefit.
b]
Going through CAT Cables that cost less that 6 to 7 US $'s is not their idea of Fun / test or play.
c]
The intent was to find out if CAT Cables have an impact on the overall sound.
d]
If we want to decide which cable is 'liked' or 'sounded' the best - yes a test format as suggested by you may be implemented.
However, only a concerned party will do it - imho

Here we just needed to know if CAT Cables 'change the sound' & the answer was got.

Thanks.

 

[doors666]

How was the test done. Were you streaming the files or were you transferring the files, storing and then playing them on your music pc.

Here's another test you can do... transfer the flac or wav files thru the three cables, store them separately on your pc which plays the music. Verify the files are identical... Then tell your friends you are streaming and pretend to change the cables and then play those identical files from the music pc. Lets see how many of them report differences. This is more to test your friends' ears rather than the cables.

 

[abhijitnath]

Hi Bhagwan,

I got your objective, and understand the painful logistics of flipping network cables 40 times, for you as well as the listeners
However, , my point was this- because of the flaws of the methodology, you haven't actually got the answer in your last line "Here we just needed to know if CAT Cables 'change the sound' & the answer was got.". It wasn't- not with statistical significance (the like could just be a fluke). Anyway, I guess it's still fun as an experiment!

 

[keith_correa]

Bhagwan, told ya!

 

[arj]

This is a Very interesting situation
Bhagawan was clear he is doing this only to prove/disprove if there is a difference in his setup for a very specific condition of point to point cabling using Jplay

While we had a lot of discussions around why there should not be a difference quoting science, now that he has found a difference and validated it with some other folks we can react in a couple of ways
1. Disbelieve him and say what he has heard is not true as per what science we have already used
2. Say that the process followed is not correct and hence the experiment is not a true scientific experiment and maybe debunk the theory
3. since there was a result, try to find out what are the reasons causing it..if we find the cause we should find the scientific explanation for it

from a science perspective of testing a hypothesis i would really be interested if we could all try to focus on 3 to see if there is something we can find out.

1&2 are easy decisions to take as we can practically close this thread untill someone else brings this up and we start all over again


I presume that as far as Bhagwan is concerned, his objective is Met and our opinions may have no bearing on his future plans

But We do owe a thanks to Bhagwan for having given us an opportunity in participating in this :clapping:

i personally may not have gone thru this...even if i had tested it, it would have been a bare mention in a topic..

Borrowing Captains Flame-retardent coat again

 

[hemantwaghe]

Mazhar

in the first place can you tell us what is this 2 PC arrangement? Where data resides ? Or I am missing something??

 

[sidvee]

But We do owe a thanks to Bhagwan for having given us an opportunity in participating in this :clapping:

I concur Arj. Anytime any FM spends as much time and energy and money as Bhagwan has done, to test out certain options pertaining to sound quality it should be welcomed. Obvously users can make their own inferences and eventually their own choices, based on their beliefs, resources etc. - I was turned onto hi-fi from a computer by a similar experiment by a motivated member on a different forum (specifically relating to usb to spdif converters). Had I not followed that thread I would have never considered spending money on converters and personally it would have been a great loss to me both financial as well as musical as I would have kept upgrading my Cd player which IMO is obsolete technology and concluding that great sound from computers is not possible. Whatever the outcome/reservations I will only encourage these type of threads and also seek them out. I make it a point to surf computer audiophile and the computer audio section on audiogon frequently. Never know where you might find a nugget of information that will help you to improve your own system.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Shivam]

Mazhar

in the first place can you tell us what is this 2 PC arrangement? Where data resides ? Or I am missing something??

Check in the other thread about his 'white' and 'black' machines and jplay. The cable he tested was being used between these two machines.
http://www.hifivision.com/dac/44648-j-play-5-1-2-box-win-8-ultra-mode-hibernate.html

 

[IndianEars]

The mind is like a Parachute ....

It only works when it is Open

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

You are missing a whole thread about that.

Also, about the RJ45 cable, there are locking Neutrik connectors available. My Variax guitar has one- this is what it looks like. http://www.vettaville.com/images/cable_ends.jpg

What would you plug them into? There's no network card that comes with a socket like this?

Have you got a link to the product page, please? I'm curious.

Here's another test you can do... transfer the flac or wav files thru the three cables, store them separately on your pc which plays the music. Verify the files are identical...

There is some very excellent software for this. I'd forgotten. Audio DiffMaker. This leaves ears out of it, which tends to be unpopular with audiophiles, but hey, anybody wants "proof?" You got proof. If AudioDiffMaker, along with correct methodology, shows a regular, repeatable difference, then I will certainly be happy to eat my networking textbook.

 

[keith_correa]

Ah, Audio DiffMaker. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to bring this up.

So I wonder what the results of this would be?
1. Line out of a Rs.500 CDP/DVDP to soundcard.
2. Play track on CDP/DVDP. Save the output/input on the computer.
3. Line out of a Rs.25000 CDP to soundcard.
4. Play same track on CDP. Save the output/input on the computer.
5. Compare both files using the DiffMaker.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I guess it could be used that way. One has to be careful what one is measuring. If, for example, the SNR of your sound card is less than one or both of the CD players, then the SNR result you see will, very likely be that of the soundcard.

I can't find the link, so this is vague, but If I remember correctly, there is a thread on Gearslutz [???] where people have tested a number of sound interfaces by looping output back to input to compare performance. In an ideal world, where no energy was lost to friction when a rope passes over a pulley, what you record would be the same as what you play...

there should be a method that makes this network comparison trivial --- but I don't have experience of this software. The only time I looked at it, it did not do what I wanted.

 

[mowgli80]

The only reason I can think for the perceived difference is that Bhagwan is using unreliable sensors i.e. humans for his testing. For proper testing, you need to have the receiever in a constant state which is not possible for humans. Our hearing changes based on our environment and the state our brain is in, which is constantly changing. Don't know about others but my concentration generally keeps dropping with time even though music keeps playing. Without any changes to my setup, I still keep hearing newer things that I haven't heard before, everyday. I would like to think I am different but am not and i suppose the same happens to most FMs. Another problem with humans is that our senses have limited ability e.g our eyes percieve the earth to be flat but that is not the case. I remember being taught how measurement with a tape changes with the position you look at it from, showing how deficient our senses are.

Bhagwan, one of test I suggest is to let the participants think that the cables are being changed but not doing so for a few iterations and verify if the participants still percieve a difference. Another is to repeat the cables in random order and see if the sound quality rating does not change. That would be more accurate test for what you are trying to do.

@Captain - Your statement about unknown measurements is imho invalid as you are not aware of how ethernet works or for that matter what it measures. It is a clever paradox invented by snake oil sellers for perpetual idemnification. There is no way to counter your argument and equally, there is no way you can prove it to be correct because nobody knows the measure of "unknown".

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Spot on, in every way and very nicely put.

If I hear a piece of music twice, my hearing of it, and my reaction, is going to be different the second time. Accepted: within the inevitable subjectivity there are various degrees of objectivity, according to the nature, training and practice of the person. A mixing or mastering engineer may be able to listen to the same piece of music dozens of times: they are trained/experienced to know what is there, what they want, and how to achieve it. Sure, some non-professionals practice too, others among us are far less experienced. In making these comments, I refer to no-one in particular, except that, where human behaviour is concerned, I am my first guinea pig and, as Mowgli80 says, although we may think we are different, by and large, we are not.

I think I can postpone eating the networking book. I was getting worried... :lol:

 

[vijwilso]

Have n't read the whole thread ...
Assuming the connectivity between the two PCs are over TCP/IP ,

The error detection happens in the Ethernet layer which can drop the packet based on the information from CRC in Ethernet packet . And also checksum in IP header .

And

The error recovery happens with the TCP mechanism where the sender resends the packet when there is no acknowledgement for it . The drop could happen due to bad CRC/checksum after received or packet drop during the transit ( in cable itself ) or collision in broadcast domain which is not a case in two PC setup as the connection is back to back.

So with TCP/IP there is NO chance of Corrupted packet/data or lost packet . What you send is what you receive.

It may result in variance in the latency ( Which is the Jitter ) with too many packet lost during the transit or corrupted packet ( Which may happen with the really really BAD cable ) . But any normal cable , with the back to back connectivity , this will not be really a factor . Assuming some level of buffer is allocated in higher level application ( which can compensate for the jitter ) , I am not sure how this could show the improvement theoretically.