Difference between 15,000 Rs and 15 lakh Rs audio ampilfiers

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suri

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this excerpt is from the Accuphase website-

"The M-6000 was born out of a thorough re-evaluation of the power amplifier from a new vantage point. Aiming for nothing less than the ultimate in sound quality, this monophonic power amplifier with its massive heat sinks on both sides stands as an impressive achievement. The decisive difference to conventional designs lies in the fact that the M-6000 possesses two completely identical power amplifier circuits which are driven in parallel. Kept entirely separate and mounted on the left and right sides of the chassis, these circuits deliver output current reserves on a previously almost unheard-of level. A damping factor rating of more than 500 demonstrates that this amplifier is capable of driving even the most difficult, ultra-low impedance loads with ease."


this statement is about one of their monophonic (monoblock) amplifiers -

i felt that -- " A damping factor rating of more than 500 demonstrates that this amplifier is capable of driving even the most difficult, ultra-low impedance loads with ease." -- is this why the audiophile forks over cash for such a thing - given that a voice coil in a magnetic field is subject to so many variables while trying to reproduce dynamic music over any length of time?

the moot point, then, is should one buy an inefficient, difficult to drive speaker and spends lots of cash on a suitable amp - or

buy a very efficient speaker paying lots of cash and save on the power amplifier ?

which is the better approach?
 

gobble

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Maybe the answer is ....

spend lotsa cash in buying an efficient speaker and then spend even more cash in buying a good high current power amp ....


not hard to guess now was it? :)

Cheers
 

suri

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Maybe the answer is ....

spend lotsa cash in buying an efficient speaker and then spend even more cash in buying a good high current power amp ....


not hard to guess now was it? :)

Cheers

no gobble,

the idea is to create the same experience at a cost that gets less as knowledge about the process improves -

i would expect that, as technology advances and knowledge accretes, the cost of the "hi-fi" experience will be pared to it's absolute minimum.

i wonder if you have misread my intentions?

i am looking for answers - and i beg your pardon - but i am certainly not a poser!:)

at least, i hope i do not appear as such!
 
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BLASTO

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the idea is to create the same experience at a cost that gets less as knowledge about the process improves -

i would expect that, as technology advances and knowledge accretes, the cost of the "hi-fi" experience will be pared to it's absolute minimum.

I have observed, If there is something in electronics that does not get cheaper with time, it is the hifi components wrt sound..

Hifi components wrt picture are the exact opposite..
 

venkatcr

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I have observed, If there is something in electronics that does not get cheaper with time, it is the hifi components wrt sound..

This could be because of the shrinking market directly mixed with snake oil that manufacturers use abundantly on a set of people who will pay anything to be unique. :)

Cheers
 

spirovious

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Today I compared Denon500(18k) ,Arcam (60k), Bryston(pre+power).I didnt go in model nos as just wanted to compare.
Technically Bryston is far superior,Arcam in mid & Denon at low.
To my surprise,Denon was sounding fuller & perhaps better than rest two.

Arcam midrange was not so good.Bryston was detailed ,but considering price,not too much of sonically improvement.

Denon was clean,balanced & open too.
Many will not agree with me,but this is my honest opinion.
 

suri

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This could be because of the shrinking market directly mixed with snake oil that manufacturers use abundantly on a set of people who will pay anything to be unique. :)

Cheers

hi venkat,

this looks like a plausible answer! - after all, like blasto said, if the thing was popular and appealed to the consumer, the cost would go down!:)
 

shaizada

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Hi!

Many times it takes more than a simple switch out to really understand the value provided by a different amplifier. Maybe within the context of the system, the Denon sounds better. Maybe with different components, the Bryston can be made to sound much more "fuller" while providing much more detail.

That is just how these things work. If it was my system, I would put a fantastic tube preamp for the fullness and let the Bryston pass on all that detail and and information to the speakers.

Again...I just want to point out that it is the System synergy that is the main factor and concentration shouldn't be on just one component. I have seen components change complete sound signatures with a few simple tweaks with things such as power delivery, vibrational control and different cabling.

Just wanting to help you think differently. It is never about individual components but how you approach a "system". Therein lies the challenge ;)
 

suri

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Hi!

Many times it takes more than a simple switch out to really understand the value provided by a different amplifier. Maybe within the context of the system, the Denon sounds better. Maybe with different components, the Bryston can be made to sound much more "fuller" while providing much more detail.

That is just how these things work. If it was my system, I would put a fantastic tube preamp for the fullness and let the Bryston pass on all that detail and and information to the speakers.

Again...I just want to point out that it is the System synergy that is the main factor and concentration shouldn't be on just one component. I have seen components change complete sound signatures with a few simple tweaks with things such as power delivery, vibrational control and different cabling.

Just wanting to help you think differently. It is never about individual components but how you approach a "system". Therein lies the challenge ;)

then, shaizada,

given a flexible budget - $ 4000 - $100,000/-

put together a two-channel stereo system that (you think) is maximum value for the cash.

i will analyze.:)

regds

edit - forget vinyl.
 
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shaizada

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Sure! I'll give it a shot. A few things, best to buy used so I will look to maximize bang for the buck. You can end up purchasing a much higher spec'd system for a given system cost/budget.

Also, how big of a room are you putting this system in?
I can suggest a very good setup that I would use myself.

That $4000 (isn't it $5000 = Rs.100,000?) is hopefully just for the main components, speakers, cabling and such. Room acoustics should not be part of that budget as they are even more important than the components in my experience.

Also, that cost does not include a "consulting fee" of $1000. Please remember to add that in :p :lol:
 

suri

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Sure! I'll give it a shot. A few things, best to buy used so I will look to maximize bang for the buck. You can end up purchasing a much higher spec'd system for a given system cost/budget.

Also, how big of a room are you putting this system in?
I can suggest a very good setup that I would use myself.

That $4000 (isn't it $5000 = Rs.100,000?) is hopefully just for the main components, speakers, cabling and such. Room acoustics should not be part of that budget as they are even more important than the components in my experience.

Also, that cost does not include a "consulting fee" of $1000. Please remember to add that in :p :lol:

hi shaizada,

the room = 35 feet into 18 feet with ceiling 12 feet tapering to 9 feet at end.

cost = all components = not including room and room treatments

cost of power cables = absolute minimum

maximum attention = source (digital) and amplification (class A)

$4000= 2 Lakh INR (200,000) and $100,000 = 50 Lakh INR (50,00,000)

regds, suri
 
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sbg

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Difference between 15,000 Rs and 15 lakh Rs audio ampilfiers

....
Just wanting to help you think differently. It is never about individual components but how you approach a "system". Therein lies the challenge ;)
Not to bumb into this thread.
But I miserably thought over....
I can afford Rs.15,000, but 15 lakh -I am not Willing to.
:eek:hyeah:
My Ears are my limitation : a blessing or a curse - no idea, may be I do not know what i missed.But settled for one I felt most transparent to my ears with in the limitation of my Willingness to honour high PRICE.

Thanks to all that I am spending more time in understanding than enjoying music - i mean it.

This is the way how I look at it. Many will differ and will change their choice of speaker, knowing that it falls out of their reach. And that's a different story..... :)
is that my story!:rolleyes:
 

gobble

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no gobble,

the idea is to create the same experience at a cost that gets less as knowledge about the process improves -

i would expect that, as technology advances and knowledge accretes, the cost of the "hi-fi" experience will be pared to it's absolute minimum.

i wonder if you have misread my intentions?

i am looking for answers - and i beg your pardon - but i am certainly not a poser!:)

at least, i hope i do not appear as such!

I never read anything into your posts, I was just kidding around :)

Cheers
 

shaizada

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hi shaizada,

the room = 35 feet into 18 feet with ceiling 12 feet tapering to 9 feet at end.

cost = all components = not including room and room treatments

cost of power cables = absolute minimum

maximum attention = source (digital) and amplification (class A)

$4000= 2 Lakh INR (200,000) and $100,000 = 50 Lakh INR (50,00,000)

regds, suri


My friend,

I'm going to do a system that I would like and keep for myself in your budget. A fantastic amp doesn't have to be pure Class A. Thats just the normal notion. Remember, we are chasing a fantastic sound, not specs. Tubes have too much distortion that way, yet we enjoy and love their sound....why? The reason is it is even order distortion that is pleasant to our ears.

Anyhow, I'm just pointing these things out as you seem to have set a paradigm on how much everything should cost sources, amps, cabling etc. I am challenging exactly that mindset and suggesting purely based on sound and my own listening experience.

Anyhow, here are things I would do in that price range:

Source:
I would use the computer as a source and get a DAC.
Option 1:
PICO Dac from Headamp electronics $350 new. Haven't heard anything up to $1000 that could touch this. It up converts internally to 24bit/96Khz but only accepts 16bit/44.1 or 48 Khz. Also does this using I2S which is a very jitter immune protocol for the DAC chip. It is actually the native format the DAC understands. Forget the technical mumbo jumbo...that is what I would pic.

Option 2:
Lavry DA10 DAC $750 Used. One of the best DACs I have heard all the way up to $5k. One of the best bang for the buck DACs. There are others from Ayre, Wavelength, Empirical Audio, Benchmark, Stello, Grace, Apogee.....long story short....the Lavry is the best sounding version to my ears and listening taste.
There is a Lavry DA11 but that adds USB and costs about $1480 new. Haven't seen a used on yet. It sounds just like the DA10, but adds a few features such as PiC and a few other things. Who cares....the sound is the same. Use an optical output from the computer into the Lavry...Done.

AMP:
Manley Stingray EL84 about $1250 used. Fantastic amp switcheable between Ultralinear and Triode modes. About 50 watts and more than needed.

OR another amp that I love

Almarro 205a MKii about $750 used. Need to do a few mods and it totally sings! Change coupling caps to ampohm (about $40), get some furutech fuses (3 fuses at $150) and a pair of Mullards EL84 later on (about $400). One of the best sounding amps I've owned and heard in SET. It's only 5 watts but the sound......god!

Speakers:
Omega Super 6 Alnico: $1450 new
Best bang for the buck and not ashamed by speakers costing all the way up to $20k speakers is hands down, the Omega speakers that I use and love.
Single driver, no crossover and a sound/tonality that anyone will fall in love with. Range is from $625 to $3000 (plus subwoofer for $1000). Get the best one you can....I got the Super 8 with Alnico magnets with dual deephemps subwoofers. You get the Super 8 used for about $1600. Add a subwoofer later on for about $800 used. Done! One of the best sounds you can live with for life.

There are thousands of other speakers, but I expect a lot for my listening taste. Price no bar, I love the sound of the Omegas. The soundstage, the feel...god. Falling in love with the sound of a speaker is no easy feat after tasting (read owning) B&W800D (patterned with Classe Omega Monoblocks), Usher Be20, Marten Design Coltranes, Wilson Alexandria X2 (with VTL Seigfried Reference Monoblocks) and MBL 101e (with MBL 9011 monoblocks).
Anyhow, forget about what I've owned and listened to extensively. This is about finding your taste. I love my Omegas and I can guarantee you will love them as well if your tastes align even a little bit with mine.

Cabling:

I use Furutech offerings. They sell cable by the foot as well. That is what I would buy for everything...power, speaker, interconnects and just build them myself. That would be more than enough and the OCC copper they make and use is some of the best in the world. It even sounded better than the Jena Labs Pathfinder cables I used to own which also are copper based. I heard the Jena Dreamdancer cables and ultimately went with the Furutech Audio Reference III. I know what cable is used in the Audio Reference III, so you an buy that in bulk. Total in cabling will be about $1000 for power, signal and speaker plus RCA ends, AC plugs and speaker spades.

TOTAL roughly is about: $4500 to $5000.

The combination of the Almarro and the Omega speakers better setups in sound quality up to $15k systems I've heard. It's all about the synergy ;)

You asked my opinion....you have it right there. That should keep you busy for a while :)

Later on, tweak things like a proper equipment racks, vibration control and room acoustics. Remember, to me, room acoustics is about 65% of the sound. The system components have a lesser importance. Treat the room properly first otherwise you won't even get 75% of the performance of the components. Again....my experience and not something I read about or learnt through word of mouth.
 

rikhav

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Hi Shaizada
These are excellent recommendations keeping specs aside and giving priority to musicality
I have not heard about any of the equipments except the speakers which also i know because you had written about it. I always say that there are so many audio equipment manufacturers in the world that i almost learn about a new one every day :)
The only problem is that all this equipment would be hard to find in india in new and used would be even more rare.
 

suri

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Hi Shaizada,

that looks real good - this is for my brother in mangalore - he asked me - i asked you - and i will try and fix this one!

thanks - and, no - i will keep in mind that i owe you!:)

regds
 

shaizada

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Glad you like the system guys. The synergy in something like that would be mind blowing and easily a system you can live with for years and years to come. All without breaking the bank for a sound quality of this calibre.

I'm sure you're brother would really enjoy himself building this one out.

Good luck!
 

afg

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Shaizada, great recommendations :clapping:.

Just a few questions on the Omega speakers. How good is the integration between the subwoofer and the spearkers? I have heard that single driver speakers are very fast for subwoofers to keep up. What is the ideal room size for this spearker set up (including the subwoofers?). How do they fare with dynamic music with a lot of low bass? I also saw that the the top end rolls-off at 18k hz. Do the highs sound subdued? Can they be ordered from the net as they are not available in India.

I have the new Amphion speakers (the prio 620s) currently driven by a Cayin tube amp with a Rega CD player. Lovely speakers and great synergy- fantastic sound. But one day I would like to own a SET tube amp with single driver speakers (though I have promised by wife that I will not buy any audio stuff for the next 10 years :sad:).
 

square_wave

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Maybe the answer is ....

spend lotsa cash in buying an efficient speaker and then spend even more cash in buying a good high current power amp ....


not hard to guess now was it? :)

Cheers

Vis--vis conventional multi driver loudspeakers and the amps you marry them with, there are no rules.
There are different camps and design philosophies in loudspeaker design. On one hand you have highly efficient and easy to drive loudspeakers (Green mountain audio etc) while on the other hand you have like Appogees and Theils which can be a nightmare for amps which are not built like a tank.

If you ask the designers, all of them have their own reasons to choose their path. One is not necessarily better than the other.

I know someone who has the green mountain loudspeakers and he listens to them at very low volumes. But I have never heard another loudspeaker which can you micro level details and low level dynamics at such low volume levels except for some single driver speakers. This is the beauty of a very easy to drive speaker with drivers with superb rise time.
Someone else may want their loudspeaker to play at a vastly different volume level (resembling live). There may a different design approach which may be better for this.

Now there are loudspeakers which are efficient which play loud too ( Klipsch, JBL )Such speakers usually sound a lot different from the ones which are difficult to drive (Theils, dynaudio, Atc etc)

I guess if you dig deep into speaker design you could probably figure out what approach to embrace.
 
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