Difference between 15,000 Rs and 15 lakh Rs audio ampilfiers

[square_wave]

When we go out to audition and select a speaker esp. from a selection of good brands that we wish to possess for our own personal enjoyment, I feel we do so without ever thinking at that point - what is the sensitivity or impedance or ill electrical characteristics (having a combination of inductive & capacitive phase swings with bumping impedance that dip really low).

And when we really like a certain speaker since its able to meets most or all our dreams & aspirations, little do we note at that point what it takes to drive that speaker. We were primarily concerned whether the speaker does the job we wished in our dreams.

Well - now that the speaker has been selected, we get down to dig further towards the cost of the speaker itself. And then, comes all the tech details whether, is it a 92dB or a 82dB sensitivity speaker, a 3.5 ohm dipping one and so on....

Little do we have a choice then, once you're in love with the speaker. And if that mandates you in spending $15,000 for an amplifier that provides a vice-like grip on the speaker, then we may have to proceed in that direction - if we are really interested in getting the best out of "that chosen loudspeaker".

This is the way how I look at it. Many will differ and will change their choice of speaker, knowing that it falls out of their reach. And that's a different story.....

This again points to the importance of having a system approach . A loudspeaker will never perform to its potential if they are not paired well with the appropriate amp.
The audiophile needs to come up with a total budget, then shortlist the loudspeakers which sound divine to him/her. Now choose the loudspeaker which can accommodate the appropriate amp in the budget.

No point in buying a dynaudio C1 and pairing it with a Rotel power amp.

 

[shaizada]

Shaizada, great recommendations :clapping:.

Just a few questions on the Omega speakers. How good is the integration between the subwoofer and the spearkers? I have heard that single driver speakers are very fast for subwoofers to keep up. What is the ideal room size for this spearker set up (including the subwoofers?). How do they fare with dynamic music with a lot of low bass? I also saw that the the top end rolls-off at 18k hz. Do the highs sound subdued? Can they be ordered from the net as they are not available in India.

I have the new Amphion speakers (the prio 620s) currently driven by a Cayin tube amp with a Rega CD player. Lovely speakers and great synergy- fantastic sound. But one day I would like to own a SET tube amp with single driver speakers (though I have promised by wife that I will not buy any audio stuff for the next 10 years :sad.

The integration of the Omega subwoofer with the single drivers is pretty much seamless. There is no bass overhang which can drive me crazy. That is the reason I ended up with the Omega sub because no other sub could match the speed of the fullrange single driver. The designer really made sure the integration was smooth and perfect and it shows in the sound.

The bass they do is excellent. It is NOT subterranean bass that some others speakers can do, but it is just accurate, quality bass with tons of texture. It is more acoustical bass that lets tonality shine through. If you're looking to play hip hop or trance/trip hop/dance music, this is definitely NOT the speaker to look at.

However, if you want to hear resin of the violin bow, the vintage of the wood used in the bass, the resonances after a guitar string has been plucked, that is the kind of stuff the Omegas shine at and many others fail. Of course, upstream components make all the difference in this, but if your system can produce the sound, the Omegas will let it through unhindered and beautifully.

35ft by 25ft room is no problem for any of the 8inch drivers. Also, I prefer a more midfield to nearfield presentation with these speakers, just FYI.

The highs are not subdued in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. In fact, that single driver is able to reproduce high frequencies better than many dedicated tweeters I've heard. But it's not about parting the frequencies out....the single driver experience is about taking it all in together as a whole. When this integration of frequencies comes together, there is nothing like it in a crossover based design. You'll see what I mean when you experience it.

BUT, since you can't buy audio equipment for the next 10 years, yeh baatein chord na Biwi peetey gi....hyeah:

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hi Shaizada,

Some very good suggestions and advice here!

Each one of us goes on this musical journey our own way. Some find their goal early enough, others keep seeking for times eternal.

One aspect that I would stress is to keep listening to live music. Whether it be rock concerts, Hindustani or Carnatic music, or solo guitar or piano - live performances give you a perspective to judge reproduced music by. Otherwise, you're gropping in the dark, or going by some stupid reviewers advice!

I've also found that high-sensitivity speakers, especially single fullrange ones, and good low powered tube amplifiers get me there more than the conventional audio systems. There is emotional communication happening there, that is lacking in the conventional ones.

So, you pick what you desire. That desire has to be identified first!

And, thanks for picking out the "lowly" EL84 tube for it's beguiling sound. It's vastly under-rated by the hifi community.

Regards,
Viren

 

[hifiashok]

sir,

when u say live music, do you mean unplugged or with the standard 'professional' miking, loudspeakers and cables? i recently attended a southie wedding that had group nadaswaram one evening and pair violin the next. both were using electronic drones. both used the mandap/choultry provided electronics.

would the typical electronics used in most live music sessions colour the sound, unless unplugged, i.e.?

Hi Shaizada,

Some very good suggestions and advice here!

Each one of us goes on this musical journey our own way. Some find their goal early enough, others keep seeking for times eternal.

One aspect that I would stress is to keep listening to live music. Whether it be rock concerts, Hindustani or Carnatic music, or solo guitar or piano - live performances give you a perspective to judge reproduced music by. Otherwise, you're gropping in the dark, or going by some stupid reviewers advice!

I've also found that high-sensitivity speakers, especially single fullrange ones, and good low powered tube amplifiers get me there more than the conventional audio systems. There is emotional communication happening there, that is lacking in the conventional ones.

So, you pick what you desire. That desire has to be identified first!

And, thanks for picking out the "lowly" EL84 tube for it's beguiling sound. It's vastly under-rated by the hifi community.

Regards,
Viren

 

[unleash_me]

there must be a reason that some amplifiers cost 15-40lakhs INR and some cost 15-40 thousand INR-

seems it is all about CURRENT - and the most expensive ones can double up as arc welding machines!-

Legendary Audio Classics: Damping Factor

Thanks for the link. May be this will give you an other point of view.

 

[murali]

then, shaizada,

given a flexible budget - $ 4000 - $100,000/-

put together a two-channel stereo system that (you think) is maximum value for the cash.

i will analyze.

regds

edit - forget vinyl.

If you haven't read the recent experience of JA in the Stereophile, please go on and you may find answers for some of your questions there (some excerpts):

"What on earth can be the readily identifiable difference between the sound of a loudspeaker producing the live sound of an electric guitar and that same loudspeaker reproducing the recorded sound of an electric guitar? I went on to conjecture that the act of recording inevitably diminishes the dynamic range of the same thing. The in-band phase shift from the inevitable cascade of high-pass filters that the signal encounters on its passge from recording microphone to playback loudspeakers smears the transients that, live, the listener perceives in all their spiky glory. And a high pass filter is never encountered with live acoustic sound, that is where the esential difference must lie. Something in nature abhors a capacitor."

To further test these arguments, JA recently experimented an idea to test live vs recorded music. Two pianists would perform for an hour on a well-prepared Steinway D grand piano which he would record and after a break, th audience would hear the same recital again but this time played back through a system of all ultra-expensive components like Vivid Giya speakers, CAT electronics, Esoteric's 5-box digital front-end (including G-0Rb "atomic" master clock!!!) with helium-filled Stealth cables. The microphones used were a spaced pair of high-voltage DPA 4003 omnis and an ORTF pair DPA 4011 cardioids amplifed by low-priced Millenia Media preamps.

Observations and conclusions? The Esoteric-CAT-Vivid system got right not only the tone colors of the real thing, but surprisingly both the loudness and microdynamics too. ("At the climax of 'Pictures, the Great Gate of Kiev', with Genady Zagor pounding the keys, the walls literally shook!") The transients were sufficiently spiky, and the impact of the recorded piano was as viscerally overwhelming as the real things had been. Certainly the audience seemed impressed by what they heard. However, even with the same tone colors and and sound-pressure level, the instruments and loudspeakers were exciting the room differently. The relationship of live with the room acoustic was still different and the so-called "bigness" was close enough but still not quite right. Ultimately, it is perhaps best to just accept that live music and recorded music are two different phenomena whatever the components we use.

JA's final quote (from Evan Eisenberg's book "The Recording Anglel: Explorations in Phonography") is splendid and thought-provoking: "In the great majority of cases, there is no orignal music event that a record records or reproduces. Instead, each playing of a given record is an instance of something timeless. The original musical event never occurred; it exists, if it exists anywhere, outside history."

May be it is time to drag in people like Razool Pookutty into our forum in the aim of the never-reachable audio nirvana whether Rs 15,000 ot Rs 15 lakh components are involved.

cheers.
murali

 

[rikhav]

I also want to ask what Ashok ji has asked
Are we talking about unplugged sound or instrument sound through amps and speakers in a live concert

 

[murali]

I also want to ask what Ashok ji has asked
Are we talking about unplugged sound or instrument sound through amps and speakers in a live concert

If you are asking about the Stereophile editor's experiment, the answer is "unplugged". The Steinway D grand piano is a failry big one, the room of the experiment was small which seated around 20 or so listeners. Mr. Atkinson further describes that the mikes were set closer to the piano because playing back a recording in the same room in which it was made results in a double hit of that room's acoustic which can introduce an obvious difference between the live and recorded sounds that will work against the illusion. And, arranging for a room that would allow the piano enough reverberation to "breathe" but not so much as to hobble the loudspeakers was not trivial.

My own personal experience of "unplugged" live music has been only once, several years back when I sat through a concert in the Navarathri Mandapam in Trivandrum listening to the unadulterated live music without any stuffs between the musician and listeners, and somewhat open space without having to worry too much about room acoustics and things like that.

cheers.
murali

 

[sonosphere]

I also want to ask what Ashok ji has asked
Are we talking about unplugged sound or instrument sound through amps and speakers in a live concert

Hi everybody,
with due-respect to Mr. Viren's suggestion regarding live music as a reference ("...Otherwise, you're gropping in the dark...") .... I wish to highlight that hardly 10% of audiophile's in India get opportunity to attend live concerts (...for various reasons >> How many times in last year, a memorable live concert was held in your town /city, and how many of them did you attend? >> too busy? coudn't get tickets? the music was not my type?...)

For for the majority of audiophiles, a good blend of musical arrangement on CD is closest one can get to good music (whether unplugged or amplified...).

So in context of this thread we should lookout for a system that brings out whats on CD, as faithfully as possible (barring the fact that some of us deliberately prefer "coloured" sound instead of neutral one )

Regds,

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hi,

With due respect to you, sonosphere, if we spent half the amount of effort here arguing about "audiophile benefits", we'd find enough live music to attend to in whatever city you are.

Here in Delhi, there are rich pickings throughout the year, especially in the winter months, of whatever type of music you prefer. There are public concerts, most of which are free, and ticketed performances in clubs and theatres.

"Live" applies to all concerts, regardless of whether they are acoustic or amplified. You get the same feeling of music being created, of participating in the event. The sense of being alive, of hearing artists create music fluidly and effortlessly, is what has to be experienced. That still comes through the sound reinforcement system being used. I have to say the concerts in Delhi are quite well amplified.

Viren

 

[sidvee]

Just my 2cents - I have been to in-numerable concerts - from large stadium rock concerts (cold play in detroit area, bruce springsteen in new jersey etc.) to intimate jazz clubs (green mill in chicago - Patricia Barber live, and various clubs in NY city - Keb Mo etc). First of all I think listening at home and listening to live music is 2 different things entirely. IMHO if we try to hit the SPL of live (especially amplified) music at home in a relatively small space - the chances of going deaf is quite high - and indeed I found a lot of these concerts quite loud - in fact a lot of concertgoers carry ear plugs (I guess they go there for the experience rather than strictly music). Regarding the more intimate spaces like jazz clubs - even unamplified music can be quite loud - albeit sounds a lot better. I am not a Western or Indian Classical listener so I cannot comment on Opera halls and the likes, but for the genre of music that I prefer and the venues I have heard them in - I am definitely not trying to reproduce that sound but rather a facsimile of it that can be controlled by the volume knob - and as such prefer systems that can reproduce a faithful imitation of what I heard rather than the real thing. Just my preferences/opinions and not statements of fact.
Cheers
Sid

 

[sonosphere]

Hi,

With due respect to you, sonosphere, if we spent half the amount of effort here arguing about "audiophile benefits", we'd find enough live music to attend to in whatever city you are.

Here in Delhi, there are rich pickings throughout the year, especially in the winter months, of whatever type of music you prefer. There are public concerts, most of which are free, and ticketed performances in clubs and theatres.

"Live" applies to all concerts, regardless of whether they are acoustic or amplified. You get the same feeling of music being created, of participating in the event. The sense of being alive, of hearing artists create music fluidly and effortlessly, is what has to be experienced. That still comes through the sound reinforcement system being used. I have to say the concerts in Delhi are quite well amplified.

Viren

Hi Viren,
You brought back my fond memories of Delhi... flashback to late-80's early 90's... Nehru Stadium,,, Sting, Deep Purple... 10,000Watts x 20,000 crowd Opposite end of scale >> Maestro L. Subramanium with his magical Violin at an intimate gathering of 35 in open lawn behind Bhratiya Kala Kendra...

Yes, what you say is true for Mega cities with Mega stars. Not to say smaller towns with "undiscovered" mega stars are not worth listening. However IMHO the numbers still don't add up such that even half the audiophile in smaller towns (I mean the folks who buy equipment specifically for music) get to hear live music. So a well recorded CD is the only window of good music for them. And a good neutral system is the angel that opens that window.

I agree with you in a way that given a chance, we should definately find the time to hear the REAL THING, live. Its not just about the sound emanating from PA system. Its feeling the pulse of performers even if they are 50 meters away on stage. No megabuck system can replicate that.
Regds,

@suri, sorry for going a bit off-topic above. However your central character of this thread (a good amp /system) does feature in it.

 

[hifiashok]

'faithful', 'neutral', 'colored'....... in reference to what!!?

guess all (or most) of us may be looking (listening) for different things (or same things called by different names). and these possibly are the few times that ignorance seems to contribute to ambiguous levels of bliss. education, exposure and kind inputs from well read, traveled and knowledgeable gents like virenji, shaizada, etc., and, of course, tons of interesting reads on forums like hifivision contribute to further progressively enhancing the enjoyment (however opinionated, or dictated by the power of suggestion) in the road to strive for the so called audio 'nirvana'.

 

[sidvee]

That is why I repeat the altruism -" in the ears of the beholder" - because as the saying goes 'one mans meat is anothers poison' - so what I may prefer - as I referred to in my previous post - a scaled down "faithful" reproduction of the live version - if it exists at all (because a lot of the artists/music I listen to have never had a live performance or if they did I could not attend due to various reasons - especially the live jazz recordings of eary 60's - I was but a gleam in my parents eyes at that time:lol- may not be what some one else prefers or recommends and may consider it totally unlistenable. So at the end of the day one can use reviews/recommendation/listening habits/suggestions/innuendos etc. only as a guideline and always trust their ears to what pleases them the most - So the reference point has to be the listeners ears . That IMHO is the best part of our hobby - no strict guidelines - anything goes - enjoyment is must though.
Cheers
Sid

 

[venkatcr]

With reference to live music, I must say I am extremely privileged here. Not only does Chennai have the December festival season where you have 45 days of some of the best Indian musicians playing for you, local musicians have now started playing in Sabhas on a regular basis throughout the year. This, of course, is valid for all Chennai residents.

But more important for me, my club hosts a music session once every month. These include well know artists as well as upcoming one. In a session last November, the club had to shift the session from an open platform to an indoor room (where we held the second HFV meeting) as it started raining suddenly. When we all settled down, we realised all the electrical equipment were wet, and the rental company was reluctant to power them. The artist (bless his heart) promptly sat down on the impromptu stage and started singing without any amplification. It was a completely new experience to most of us, and since the, we insist all artists sing/play without any amplification.

Believe me, it is a different and exhilarating experience. For one, you really have to close your eyes and concentrate. Secondly, if you sit properly with relation to the artists, the vocal and instruments are completely separated and don't overwhelm each other.

Cheers

 

[suri]

The artist (bless his heart) promptly sat down on the impromptu stage and started singing without any amplification. It was a completely new experience to most of us, and since the, we insist all artists sing/play without any amplification.

and there lies the artistry of the group - each one part of the team and the whole - better than the sum of it's parts!

 

[arj]

i may stick out like a sore thumb here (McScrooge 'ish), but not a that much into live music :sad: from a purely musical view

i do prefer the music from my system as it gives me more control on what i want to hear and when i want to hear it and in the place I like to hear it the most my home !

Similiar to preferring Cricket Matches on TV

 

[hifiashok]

With reference to live music, I must say I am extremely privileged here. Not only does Chennai have the December festival season where you have 45 days of some of the best Indian musicians playing for you, local musicians have now started playing in Sabhas on a regular basis throughout the year. This, of course, is valid for all Chennai residents.

But more important for me, my club hosts a music session once every month. These include well know artists as well as upcoming one. In a session last November, the club had to shift the session from an open platform to an indoor room (where we held the second HFV meeting) as it started raining suddenly. When we all settled down, we realised all the electrical equipment were wet, and the rental company was reluctant to power them. The artist (bless his heart) promptly sat down on the impromptu stage and started singing without any amplification. It was a completely new experience to most of us, and since the, we insist all artists sing/play without any amplification.

Believe me, it is a different and exhilarating experience. For one, you really have to close your eyes and concentrate. Secondly, if you sit properly with relation to the artists, the vocal and instruments are completely separated and don't overwhelm each other.

Cheers

i rest my case